site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of June 19, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

10
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Why would they break an agreement which you already said would make them happy?

because taking also Kherson would make them even happier

And isn't Kherson in Ukraine anyway?

You are proposing giving to Russia some Ukrainian territories but not Kherson. Kherson would be likely next target

For what purpose?

Continue empire building.

Russia had a very clear and definite set of reasons to go into Ukraine, and I don't see those reasons existing for Estonia.

Exactly the same reasons are applying (reinvasion of former USSR areas, neighbor that dislikes them and works with USA, Russian minority is present, escaped influence and control of Moscow...). There are larger reasons against (NATO!) but all arguments for are applying.

They're not interested in recreating the USSR, but the current conflict was motivated by real and serious security concerns

Moscow would claim "real and serious security concerns" against UK and Portugal if they would conquer Poland, Germany France and Spain. This type of demands never ends.

(if you disagree, ask yourself how the US government would react if what happened in Ukraine happened in Mexico or Canada).

I am not claiming that USA is not engaging in Empire building, and yes I am familiar with United Fruit Company and related adventures in central america.

Though I expect that modern USA at its worst would not engage in large scale deliberate war crimes as an official policy.

Also, from realpolitik perspective: USA has power to maintain its influence (and does not need to invade countries in Europe to achieve this). Russia is with small exceptions unable to secure influence in Europe without invading, and it turns out that their war also does not work well. So also from realpolitik perspective they are not entitled to empire in central Europe.