This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
That literally proves his point, that Ukraine in 2014 was moving to suppress the Russian language and in 2018 they did do precisely that by repealing the law!
Do what Mearsheimer said this whole time and make it clear that Ukraine wasn't going to be part of NATO, sweep it under the carpet (like the enormous numbers of people dying in Yemen for example). That would have avoided this whole war. But no, they doubled down instead providing more arms, more NATO integration, more training and so on. Besides, when the US shoots down an airliner, nobody gets sanctioned. Accidents happen.
Not with troops. Putin only started intervening overseas in 2008 and there's a clear reactive tendency. Georgia, 2008, right after NATO membership is promised in some future time, right after the emboldened Georgians go in on South Ossetia. Then in 2014, right after the pro-Russian Ukrainian government gets deposed. One tiny border dispute in 2003 does not an imperialist make.
So I was completely right! You didn't grasp the distinction in what Mearsheimer is saying, the difference between invasion and conquest. You don't know what you're talking about. You don't understand what Mearsheimer is talking about or you've been deliberately mischaracterizing his ideas.
I wonder what happened between 2014 and 2018? Like, maybe, multiple violations of Minsk agreements by Russia, when they took Debaltseve, for example? If Russia violates every agreement it signs with you, you have to learn eventually that it doesn't work.
That's an absolute idiocy from him, to expect something like that to happen. Netherlands would certainly just go along with it. Again, hyperagency of the US, hypoagency of everyone else.
Iran Air Flight 655 incident was admitted by the US, and they paid the victims.
Nothing like that happened when it comes from Russia, they denied and deflected.
Barely any arms.
Putin was only several years in power, and he already demonstrated his belligerence in Tuzla incident, meddling in internal Ukrainian affairs, like poisoning of Yuschenko, Chechnya, continuous occupation of Transnistria, Estonia cyberattacks and so on
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_cyberattacks_on_Estonia
You have Saddam, who invaded Iran the year after he came to power, but then you have Hitler who started his land grabs only several years later. Though then you have the Second Chechen War, when Putin was the PM in prosecuting which he was very interested.
That's not what happened in reality (maybe in the alternative reality of Russian propaganda). Russia was encroaching there for years by now, placing their troops and giving away Russian passports. And then shelling Georgian villages, which, obviously, provoked Georgian response.
Yes, attack on Kyiv, Sumy, or Chernihiv was just a faint, not an attempt at conquest. And occupying Zaporizhzhia and Kherson is totally not a conquest (as it was stated by your Mearsheimer in his debate with Sykorsky). My advice: read less grand narrative stuff that likens International affairs to the game of chess or Risk, and more about particular histories and cultures of countries you are trying to discuss. Cheers.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link