This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
What are some examples?
Most of Africa, Latin America, Arab countries without infinite oil. Iran. Afghanistan. Don't know that much about Asia. Even much of Turkey is in this category in a way even though we are somewhat wealthier. Many of these places uprooted the poor, parochial but somewhat functional traditional lifestyle of their populations in a quest of modernization and industry. Tens of millions flowing into massive and honestly horrible cities as cheap labour force. The expectation was that industry would make everyone better off eventually, and these transitionary problems would be resolved through wealth. Just like in Europe.
However this obviously failed and many of these countries are actually actively de-industrializing for decades. Their connection with the global market economy turned into acting as resource extraction centers and cheap low quality immigrant labour breeders. They are dependent on commodity price super cycles, IMF loans, remittances, tourism and bare minimum of low efficiency industry for items difficult to import from China. Politics are at a total mess as the pie doesn't grow and the only way to lead a good life is to leech off the society somehow. All the millions who left poor but resilient lives in the country with strong traditional communities, honest labour, security, clean water and local food sources are now leading poor anonymous lives within crumbling city neighborhoods rife with crime and drugs, pollution, water you would rather not even brush your teeth with, and have to feed themselves with cheapest shittiest industrially convenient diets (sugar and grains). There are very few good jobs typically only in extractive industries such as mining or drilling if you aren't well-connected. The political elites have resigned themselves to steal as much as possible and send their kids to the first world.
P.S. I am not idealizing the traditional country life by the way. It was also quite suboptimal in many ways and people left for a reason, often voluntarily. I am simply saying that the replacement hasn't left these societies much better off.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link