site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of May 22, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

10
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

The very point of being a Christian is you give up earthly justice.

Is the point of being a Christian that you give up material wealth, because your treasure is in heaven, and therefore no true Christian should have a home or a bank account?

No. Having money isn't un-Christian, loving money is un-Christian. Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell all he had, give to the poor, and to follow him. He did not tell Zacchaeus to do the same, and viewed Zacchaeus making ample restitution to those he had wronged as sufficient. Annanias and Saphira were not struck down for not giving all they owned, they were struck down for lying about what they had given. Whether to sell the land was their choice, and whether to give some or all of the money was likewise a free choice, not a moral imperative.

Christians can have jobs and draw paychecks for working them. They can choose how to spend the money they earn. What they shouldn't do is treat the money as an end to itself, or think that it is there to gratify their desires. They should feed themselves, clothe themselves, house themselves to the extent that they are able, engaging in honest work and careful use of their resources to satisfy their own needs, and to build the capacity to help those around them who are in need. They should always be willing and able to walk away from their material wealth if that is what is necessary, but it is not always or even often necessary. What Christians should do with money is not reducible to a hard and fast rule, any more than their other moral commitments. Obviously they should not steal or cheat, and they should tithe, but these rules are not sufficient to capture the deeper reality of what it means to steward value in service of God.

Likewise with Justice, and law generally, and military force and a great many other things: these are part of the world that Christians are commanded to live in and to interact with, and simply abdicating all involvement and responsibility is not a general solution to the problem. There does not, in fact, appear to be a general solution to these problems, only imperfect tradeoffs. Christians should do their best to trade well, not foolishly squander what they have been given. There are circumstances when mercy is squandering what you have been given, and there are circumstances where mercy is imperative, and it is not possible for limited, flawed humans to always make the right call. All we can do is use what wisdom we have to try our best.

I don’t disagree entirely but we don’t get to take a life if we have another option. Most death penalty cases have another option.

A murderer can just be in prison. A child rapists can just be in prison. As much as we all agree they deserve death we can just remove them from society.

I don’t disagree entirely but we don’t get to take a life if we have another option.

There is always another option. No action is ever truly forced. We can take a life if it is right to do so, and if there doesn't seem to be a better way to actually handle the problem. Putting murderers in prison isn't actually a solution, as evidenced by all the murder in prison, and the murder committed by people released from prison, or escaped from prison. It's all tradeoffs made with imperfect information, there is no obvious right answer. Executing a person for murder or for other heinous crimes is not objectionable under a Christian framework; executions for lawbreaking were ordered by God himself. What execution doesn't do is clearly fulfill Christian obligations; if our society abolishes execution completely, that might well be morally acceptable to Christians, just as abolishing slavery was. Christianity demands neither.

The window though is incredibly small for execution. It must be directly related to preventing other crimes. It can be done to prevent the murder of another.

In the specific Desantis case he’s wanted to expand it to child molesters. And while I agree that’s a horrible crime it doesn’t fit any of the Christian dogmas for when it’s acceptable to execute someone. We have the means to put them in prison for life so they won’t hurt a child. Execution is just vengeance.