site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of May 22, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

10
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Mass immigration is deeply unpopular. I think the tiny minority of pro-migration people will just quietly shut up, to be honest. They're not the types that go in for conflict.

Maybe it's true that 'mass immigration' is deeply unpopular, but deporting second-generation immigrants to Syria over minor offences would definitely be much more unpopular. There was a substantial minority in favour of letting Shamima return and she joined ISIS, the shitstorm over an equivalent case for a minor offence would be extraordinary.

There was a substantial minority in favour of letting Shamima return and she joined ISIS

Yes, we have a substantial minority of traitors in this country. They should not be heeded. This is a problem with England that even Orwell has noted, that it's academic class generally loathes the country. I also routinely have arguments with people who think foreign rapists and murderers should NOT be deported.

Yes, it's true there is no-one at all with sincerely different views to yours, that wouldn't do, they're all traitors and hate the country. This is handy, as it allows the rest of us not to bother with thinking about things.

Wanting an avowed terrorist back into the country so she can face the terrifying justice of a 6 month suspended sentence, before being awarded a council house and benefits with which to pump out more kids with the local hate imam is traitorous, yes. I'm not going to pretend it isn't.

And we all know that is what would happen, because most of her crimes weren't committed here, we don't have any evidence for them even if we had standing to prosecute them, and our anarcho-tyrannical justice system is completely toothless where it counts, and only really goes after ordinary citizens who defend themselves against criminals or who say mean words on the internet.

There's a big difference between opposing mass immigration and supporting mass deportation. The closest thing to what you propose that I can think of was the expulsion of the Germans from Eastern Europe in 1945 and that was at the conclusion of a genocidal war and carried out by a communist government crueler than any a modern western European population could ever produce.