This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Only by negation, in that people act like it despite being so far from it. Our total war is less this and more maga racists and woke libs arguing on twitter (or more likely, scrolling other people arguing on twitter) for thirty minutes before driving to work. Where they'll, directly or indirectly, serve desires of consumers of all political stripes, contributing to the general peace and prosperity we all experience. The troubles are still recent, weren't even close to total war, and are a thousand times worse than American internal conflict. A thousand people get fired for saying the wrong thing - it sucks, but it's not a thousand car bombs, it's not half a city being firebombed. Is such a dramatic solution really necessary?
What is an honorable, monarchial victory for one side in modern politics? "The left" wins both on democratic numbers, 'elite' numbers, or raw skill of believers, so ... imposed racial quotas on all jobs? You giving up your political beliefs and accepting Gay Space Communism as your new ruler? The 'purifying nature' of historical war wasn't a new empire conquering your nation and then everyone hugging and making up. Maybe local life would be mostly undisturbed - new elites, occasional conscription of your men to fight more of the empire's wars (not very peaceful). Or maybe you convert to an entirely new religion, with new rituals and social arrangements. The magnanimity of the king is to not continue to kill the conquered, because conquered men are more useful to him than dead men. The king shows his power when claiming new territory so he can use that territory later, not just to 'be powerful' in some abstract sense that's never used. What does the libs 'using you' look like?
Nobody's being exterminated! Neither the trans nor the conservatives. Both are almost entirely "free" to live their lifestyle as they wish. Again, notably contrasting to the strict cultural codes of historical societies ruled by monarchs.
So was the Filioque, so was the long-past successor of Muhammad, and yet millions were killed under "personal leadership" for "national honor" from that. One could make the opposite argument - the diffuse social-media war over a thousand different topics eats up man's instinct for conflict, greasing the wheels of the cooperative global economy, or something. If democracy and mass media gives people a mode of conflict-resolution that isn't war - and the conflicts are, as FHM suggests, meaningless - why isn't democracy better? (this paragraph was exploring an idea, not something I believe is good)
I'm not sure your analogies work.
tangent on literal war, to not seem like a l*ftoid: Actual war finely separates the most capable, complex individuals and structures from the slightly-less-so, and as such is a grand, civilizational elaboration of the evolution that produced every trait we hold dear. But it's not peaceful, and it's not clear modern war, even from a consequentialist HBD darwinist nietzche [...] perspective, is particularly useful for anything.
Interesting points overall. I think there are things we could learn from modern war, though.
In actual war, the combined might of NATO failed to defeat the Taliban, a fairly small group of religious fundamentalists supported by next to nobody! We had all the wealth, firepower, training and logistics. We totally failed to achieve our objectives, whatever they were. We are missing something vital here! There is something the Taliban has and we don't, something that let them win where we lost, despite having every materiel advantage. There's something the British had and lost, when they ruled 1/4 of the world. Could modern Britain even rule 1/2 of Iraq, today? I doubt it - they can barely field 80,000 men in the army!
Maybe it's some combination of heartfelt desire for victory, self-confidence, good leadership and coherent politics.
Even the Soviet puppet government of Afghanistan had more integrity than the clowns we put in charge - it lasted until September 1992, longer than the Soviet Union itself.
I don't think that war merely reveals small details, like whether Lockheed Martin has better engineers than Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group or Sukhoi, whether AirSea battle is better than whatever Beijing is cooking up. It can show if there's a beating heart inside a civilization, or whether there's been a lobotomy.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link