This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
What range or limit are you thinking about here? 14 and up, less or more?
How do you grok this with cases in which the children were groomed secretly by their teachers and they spring this up suddenly to the parents?
In practice, about ten. As young as that sounds - and as horrible as that sounds (and is!) that is about when kids in extremis are able to satisfy the condition "Wants something badly enough to be okay being maimed or raped or killed over it - and unwilling or unable to desist. And competent enough to be able to pose a significant, sustained threat to themselves or other people.
You might have the occasional malicious or predatory or just plain criminally ignorant teacher pulling this. I suspect that the teachers doing this are well-intentioned but basically swallowed certain kinds of bait hucked by political ax-grinders and quacks in the medical establishment. We both agree that current memes around this trans shit are fucked. If it was treated as the goddamn medical condition it is, we might not be having this problem...if it was a more intense and life-altering version of the decision on whether or not to send Johnny to the neurosurgeon because he herniated a disc playing football as a freshman in high school.
But: how many of these kids who are essentially following a fashion trend are willing to look terrible suffering and even death right in the goddamn face and say "Yes. I would rather this, than desist. Here I stand; I can do no other." and then actually fucking follow through with it? Like. For MAD to work, you have to have a credible threat of mutual annihilation. I suppose that certain kinds of peer pressure and belonging might get people to do that - but that IMHO usually happens to teenagers, not middle-schoolers.
I thank you for your answers, and while I disagree with the age thing (I even think that the age of consent, for drinking, for military shit should be raised [Kids being the little retards that they are]) I can see where you are coming from. As for the second part (About grooming situations and MAD and what not) I think that if the current environment persists with the trans community and allies incapable or unwilling to police itself, the government (at least majority D ones) and the media just fanning the flames, it will serve to incentivize more malicious actors to join in. As an accelerationist I'm all for it, but I recognize that not everyone is as misanthropic as me (And really the population collapse is going to fuck all before anything else).
I mean. I do not believe that it is at all a good idea that 11-year-olds make life-altering decisions that they are in many ways unable to understand the consequences of. However, the reality is that if sufficiently motivated they will make such decisions, although that kind of motivation is thankfully quite rare. It's...any sufficiently determined individual can play the MAD card and get a tense but stable peace out of it. It is simply a way for a weaker player with a live grenade to force a draw from a stronger adversary.
I also think that...hmm. Getting someone to risk their damn life for an ideology is kind of a difficult thing. If Sarah sees that her friend Jane (and both her parents) are dead because of a murder-suicide that happened over trans care...and they're both 12...does Sarah have THAT much strength in her convictions to go down the MAD route? I doubt it. And some of the time, yes. People will be killed, maimed, and imprisoned because one side or the other overplayed their hand.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link