This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Except from your own link the author himself goes well beyond the evidence he has:
"Misleading headlines notwithstanding, no one really has the slightest idea how the brain changes after we have learned to sing a song or recite a poem. But neither the song nor the poem has been ‘stored’ in it. The brain has simply changed in an orderly way that now allows us to sing the song or recite the poem under certain conditions. When called on to perform, neither the song nor the poem is in any sense ‘retrieved’ from anywhere in the brain, any more than my finger movements are ‘retrieved’ when I tap my finger on my desk. We simply sing or recite – no retrieval necessary."
If your brain is changed in an orderly way so that you can now sing a song or recite a poem after reading/hearing them, in what way is that different than it being stored? Isn't that the definition of information storage? Even for a computer: The hard drive is changed in an orderly way so that it can recreate a song or poem (with the appropriate software in this case). If the song is not stored and retrieved from anywhere how can you recreate it, even badly? It may not be in the same way as a computer. And it may be vastly complex, but information is stored and is retrieved. I can think about my social security number and think about the numbers. My brain was (as the author states) changed in some orderly way when I first read those numbers and was changed in some orderly way to associate those numbers with "My social security number" such that when I think, "what is my SSN?" that orderly change is accessible in some way to my conscious thoughts.
It keeps saying the information is not retrieved, but then keeps saying "the brain is changed in an orderly way so that it you are able to then replicate experience X at a later point" That is a good definition of what being stored and retrieved means! The standard model may be wrong about how, but this article doesn't actually refute that it is indeed stored somehow, no matter how many times they say just that.
"they can re-experience hearing the story to some extent, although not very well (see the first drawing of the dollar bill, above)."
"For any given experience, orderly change could involve a thousand neurons, a million neurons or even the entire brain, with the pattern of change different in every brain."
His actual argument appears to be that the orderly change is large in scope and different for each person. Which may be true. And that it isn't stored in the same way as in a computer. Which also may be entirely true. But that doesn't mean that change is not storage and retrieval of information/data at all which is what he claims. It must be or you could not re-experience the story. That change must encode some amount of data about the experience. When you re-experience it (or remember it) you must be somehow accessing that stored information. It might certainly be more complex than the standard model suggests which is what his latter portions indicate:
"Worse still, even if we had the ability to take a snapshot of all of the brain’s 86 billion neurons and then to simulate the state of those neurons in a computer, that vast pattern would mean nothing outside the body of the brain that produced it."
"Think how difficult this problem is. To understand even the basics of how the brain maintains the human intellect, we might need to know not just the current state of all 86 billion neurons and their 100 trillion interconnections, not just the varying strengths with which they are connected, and not just the states of more than 1,000 proteins that exist at each connection point, but how the moment-to-moment activity of the brain contributes to the integrity of the system. "
This argument is not saying that the brain is not a computer. This argument is saying the brain is a hugely complicated and unique computer that is only understandable within the confines of the whole brain itself. Which may well be true (and may well be an argument that the most amazing advance in Star Trek is a transporter that can read and replicate your entire mind). But it doesn't prove his closing line:
"We are organisms, not computers. Get over it."
Those are not mutually exclusive categories even if materialism is incorrect. He takes a valid criticism of the standard model but then runs way too far than that criticism and his own evidence actually points towards. That the human brain does not store and retrieve information/memories in the same way a computer does is probably true. That thinking of it that way, might push people into misunderstanding is also probably true. That "no image of the dollar bill has in any sense been ‘stored’ in Jinny’s brain. She has simply become better prepared to draw it accurately, just as, through practice, a pianist becomes more skilled in playing a concerto without somehow inhaling a copy of the sheet music." is not actually supported however by evidence the author provides. If some information about what a dollar bill looks like has not been in some sense stored somewhere then Jinny would not be able to be better prepared to draw it again. He even states that you can detect activity in the brain when people are recalling memories. He says that isn't information storage and retrieval but he doesn't actually provide any proof. The fact we draw things badly from memory is not evidence that we're not storing and retrieving information, it's evidence we are storing and retrieving information badly. The fact we can detect brain activity when doing so indicates the brain is involved somehow in this storage and retrieval.
Now perhaps it is only as a conduit to the Platonic plane of metaphysical thought or as a translation device from our soul where consciousness and memory actually rests but the author doesn't provide any evidence for any alternatives.
Hilariously, his argument applies rather well to artificial neural networks. There, learning updates are also system-wide (unless you deliberately constrain them to a subset of weights) and we also can't always point to parameters that «store a fact», despite knowing perfectly that neural networks memorize, and even understanding how they do it. And if it's something less legible than a fact, such as a reasoning heuristic…
More options
Context Copy link
He certainly does.
That's the thing, I'm only really interested in the valid criticism here, not the author's pet theory. But for all its flaws that article has the the most succinct and didactic formulation of that objection I've had on hand.
Really?
That the human brain probably doesn't store information in the same way a modern computer does, is basically all he has that is even partially supported there. It's a one sentence thesis.
Now you're making me question it because rereading this article I could have sworn there was another part to it that isn't there. I was completely certain that this particular bookmark mentionned the pneumatic metaphor by name and it's nowhere to be found.
I think I might be confusing this article with a similar but completely different one. And yet I am certain it was either in this magazine or by this author.
Goddammit now I'm hallucinating things too.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link