site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of March 13, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

15
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

You moved from the ultimate reason the Bennett’s were gentry (that is land ownership) to the proximate display of manners which you claim they needed to also display their class; but in fact this secondary display is perhaps an example of their class and (in the case of the women) gender insecurity. A male Earl, or Prince could follow whatever moral course they wanted, and would still be considered an aristocrat. Women were expected to follow the rules. The lower gentry were presumably on the edge of acceptance as well.

And, to be honest, I totally disagree that your sister is upper middle class if she is a low paid counsellor (presumably employed as such rather than self employed), and the ex waitress isn’t either. Both are proles. The plumber is petit bourgeois or bourgeois. What your sister and friend are both doing to reflecting upper class ideology, which is fairly common amongst the aspirational working classes.

In the Bennett’s case Liz was upping herself to the level of Darcy, who though having no title was clearly at the level of the Earl. Readers at the time would realise that she was over promoting herself - the British were very well aware of class distinctions within the gentry. The rest of society doesn’t exist in Austen, the “poor” have servants, the servants have no names, and never speak.

Your two sisters, if we were to replicate their position in the 19C would be on the level of governess (your sister), and a servant or maid who later moved onto being a secretary. And it’s pretty clear that governesses were expected to toe the ruling class line on manners alright, and largely did so themselves, consciously or unconsciously enforcing or replicating the rules of the day.

The plumber on the other hand, if he employs people, is the equivalent of a low level industrialist - often portrayed as boorish in the literature of the day, but radicals in many ways. Liberals(1), not conservatives. A governess might well earn more than the industrialist but she’s fooling herself if she thinks she’s a higher class. She’s fooling herself is she thinks she owns her own mind.

Jane Eyre was to be fair, aware of this, she was earning a salary of £30, which is above middle income at the time but is happy to describe herself as poor.

1: as in 19c liberals, classical liberals. Economically pro free market, socially liberal by the standards of the day.