This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
We might more generally define "morality" as "actions in accordance with one's telos", which moves the problem back a step.
But it does leave us in more or less the same position, because now we need a telos, and that is not something we can give ourselves! Maybe 'survival' but that's a losing game at both the micro and macro scales, and we all know it. Also moloch, etc.
For most of Western history "morality" has meant precisely "actions in accordance with the will of our Creator," and a "good person" is one who acts accordingly.
In the pre-Christian West, a "good man" looked a lot more like Genghis Khan. He was the one who brought benefit to his people, typically at the horrific expense of others. Mercy, compassion, and so on were considered weaknesses, even to the point that the Roman goddess of such wasn't really. Clementia -- clemency -- is not the same thing. It's more like, the ability to overlook another's shortcomings to work together more effectively, as is beneficial for bringing temporal benefit to the people. A man who organized others to sail down the coast and rape, kill, loot, etc. was among the best of men.
Christianity changed a lot. All of a sudden it was considered wrong to, idk, kill inconvenient children, slaves, etc. All of a sudden there was this notion that the powerful had an obligation to the weak. And much, much more.
Now, an atheist can say something like, "Of course I can be moral! I can also perform common-sense game theoretical calculations with the aim of maximizing utilons!" But this is really not the same thing at all, and also I call BS on consequentialism because we are at best capable of tracking consequences to a few degrees out, after which we have no idea what the effects of our actions really are, and also I'm highly skeptical of the idea that "everyone matters" follows naturally.
Societies oriented toward a higher divine will (generally Abrahamic afaict) generated higher moralities. Within this moral ecosystem, defectors (atheists) were able to say, "But I don't need to believe in that telos to act the same as everyone else!" And to a point this is true, but it does suggest a frame within which atheism is a moral parasite. Able to crib, that is, but not to generate. And as a society takes its eyes off the telos, it naturally starts to backslide toward baseline human """morality""", which is not, imo, a good thing. But I can only make such normative statements because I'm still fixed on the telos.
Sure it is. Just not for you.
Genghis Khan was a good religious person acting according to the will of his creator, Tengri.
Atheists are 'defectors' to the morality-creating will of one more of such deities.
My morality is nothing compared to the will of tengri. Sure, I can 'parasite' off the morality of the religious when I pillage and rape, but I am incapable of generating something so beautifully circular.
You're the only one here talking about 'religion' like it's a useful or applicable category.
What is the difference between tengri's "good" will and your god's will?
That is a fantastic question. I'm actually writing a book somewhat along those lines. It's a really good challenge to try to figure out how to compress the answer.
The problem I'm running up against is that any angle I want to take would lean heavily on concepts that I don't think we have in common.
First I think I'd have to explain why pagan polytheism is real and true, which would take a lot of time. In the book I'm doing this by going back to the first cell in the ancient ocean and tracking evolution forward to establish how our minds work and what the gods are, and how they interrelate, and then establish that Christ is a real, observable force in the world (even from a ~secular perspective), and then get into what the Christian message actually is, which is unfortunately mostly unintelligible to people who don't first grasp the validity and veracity of both brutal selection processes (especially genetic) and (poly)theism.
Put another way: In the classical world people understood a lot of basic truths that have mostly been lost now, and the Christian message is mostly unintelligible outside of those. (Oh, and this is not an accident, but enemy action.)
I'm leaning pretty hard toward "I can't answer that for you right now and I'm sorry."
Let me float: There are gods, and then there is God, and these are... supremely different categories that play out in very different ways. The attempts I'm making to get more specific keep running me up against walls that I can't see how to overcome within the scope of this conversation. And I could nitpick and complain and get traction on any number of tangents here but they're ultimately nowhere close to central to the question.
Maybe I just need to suggest that Christianity is so much weirder than you know.
So, my apologies, and feel free to take this as an admission of at least momentary forfeit.
Have a good one man.
EDIT: Oh, but do feel free to ask more questions if you want.
All right then, keep your secrets. Good luck with euthyphro.
Another comment because I was just talking this over with some better-educated friends and if you're up on the subject you might appreciate what they had to say to me:
(Though I think his "tribal Gods" should be "tribal gods")
More options
Context Copy link
Well that I can talk about! It's a basic misunderstanding because Plato correctly perceived the gods but did not know about God, so his ability to reason about this was limited. I.e. The Euthyphro dilemma is only coherent in the context of paganism.
But I should take the question in the spirit in which it was intended and apply it to God rather than the gods (again, entirely different categories). So it's like this:
Is something good because God says it is good? Or does God say a thing is good because there is some higher standard to which God must conform?
Answer: No.
Goodness is rooted in the intrinsic and unchanging nature of God. It is neither arbitrary (God does not choose what is good) nor is it imposed externally (there is no higher authority to which God submits).
In other words, false dilemma, and always has been, and this has been addressed probably thousands if not millions of times in the last two thousand years, so it's confusing to me that people keep bringing it up. It's not like they weren't talking about this in AD 300 and giving the same answer that I am now.
N.b. I definitely phrased that poorly and I know it seems to imply that you're dumb or something, which is definitely not how I feel. I was an atheist for something like seven years and found it convincing too. Just, it turns out that, like almost any group, most Christians are not so bright and aren't very capable of understanding let alone defending their position, and especially in the West they've also lost touch with huge portions of their tradition that would shed light on the rest, so they're not even playing with a full deck as it were. This is a reflection on that sad situation, not any commentary on your competence. Thanks for the conversation.
Sorry, just doesn’t make any sense to me. I tried to wrap my head around it. I can easily understand the horns and of course, doing away with the god hypothesis altogether, and various criticisms of those positions, but your answer just sounds like a flat denial of the obvious by a motivated party. But anyway, I appreciate the attempt.
Well it's simple:
Is there a higher power to which God is beholden? No. So it's not that.
Is something made good by God arbitrarily saying so? No. So it can't be that either.
Indeed, in Christian thought God cannot even be arbitrary, but is always, by nature, perfect. So anything He says must be in alignment with His perfect nature. So if He calls something good, He's doing so not arbitrarily, but because it is in alignment with His nature.
Therefore, 'goodness' is something like equivalent to 'in alignment with [God's] nature'. And God's nature is not arbitrary, but necessary. It simply is what it is, and could not be anything else.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
And incapable of generating offspring either.
Spouses Marian Stamp(m. 1967; div. 1984) Eve Barham(m. 1984, divorced) Lalla Ward(m. 1992; sep. 2016)
Perhaps some kind of... Natural selection so to speak?
(For some reason your comment only appeared now. )
What does that have to do with anything? Besides, Jesus and his theologians can't brag on that front. Revealed preference, people generally don't care about passing on their genes, you can't 'live on', or take them with you. Oh no, they've lost a meaningless game that has nothing to do with them.
Jesus already created mankind, in his own image, he doesn't need anything else.
His theologians were and are quite prolific.
Why should anybody take somebody's concept of morality seriously if they have no stake in the future?
People generally care about their children.
Since atheists as a group refuse to breed, why should anybody care about what they care about?
Where is a Macron or a Merkel leading a country, when they get to hold power for a decade or two, and they leave no heir behind?
Are renters better neighbors than homeowners?
Dawkins created me in his own image, that really ought to be enough.
Which theologians were prolific ? Augustine, Aquinas and their lot?
They all refused to breed, and so by your logic I don't care what they care about.
Christian theologians inspire a lot of people to breed.
Theologians are a tiny, tiny minority of Christians, and Christians demonstrably breed a lot more than atheists.
What does atheism even do for atheists? Inspire them to get scammed by Bank man & Co?
This all relies on your 'breeding is supremely important' paradigm (except for the so-called Church Fathers, apparently). We're going around in circles. Have a nice day, and don't take too much shit from your boss, Job.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link