This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Except for that bit in the Sermon On the Mount.
Jesus said you should give away your surplus wealth to the poor pretty explicitly several times. However, correctly interpreting this would preclude Christianity becoming a world religion, so it's not the version of the church that came down to us.
Or that's my read anyway. The church does have slight cover because later in the Book of Mark, Jesus says:
By this passage, the Catholic Church came up with the interpretation that poverty, chastity, and obediance are only required of the priestly class, and regular Joes can still be saved if they ignore those rules. However, he is definitely still saying that giving all your stuff away to beggars is a thing you should be doing, even if God will cut you some slack.
It seems to me that this is a pretty popular interpretation, especially with non-Christians. On the other hand:
If "become a mendicant" is the actual general rule Jesus was teaching, why doesn't Jesus apply it to Zacchaeus? One possible answer is that the gospels are all made up and they're an incoherent mess, so it doesn't matter. Another possible answer is that the rich young ruler asked what he, personally needed to do, and money was his idol in a way that it was not for Zacchaeus, so it was what he, personally needed to let go of. This interpretation fits quite well with the rest of Jesus' teachings, with those of the apostles after him: Christians can acquire and use money, but they cannot let that money be their master, and they must always see it as something they are stewarding, not something they own. They must always be willing to let it go if doing so is needful.
And of course, that last description can easily be used as an excuse to cover a Christian's actual greed, but it is like that for any rule. All rules can be gamed, when they're made and enforced by other humans; a core part of the Christian faith is believing in a God who cannot be manipulated in this fashion.
My interpretation is that the tax collector's generosity was an indicator of salvation (EDIT: I originally wrote "sufficient" here), but not ideal moral behavior. Ideal would be "If you have two coats, give away one" as John the Baptist said. But the tax collector's generosity does reflect awareness of god's grace, which Zacchaeus is reciprocating with good works.
I use as my touchstone Jesus saying "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God" but then "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." To me, this reads as saying Jesus thinks being rich is sinful, but also that the grace of god can still push a rich man through. Otherwise Jesus would not bother to point out richness as a possible disqualifying factor, to begin with.
Then again, using Zacchaeus, maybe the lesson is that a moderate nest egg is okay, but only "wealth" is a sin. Where "wealth" begins past not being stony broke is unclear.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link