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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   34907 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of March 13, 2023

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It's tough to keep your face straight when someone says the only reason they don't act like a piece of shit is the fear of eternal damnation.

If everyone you know is a lovely person who doesn't need rules or regulations, they absolutely would act morally and ethically even if they had been raised by wolves with no pre-existing moral system in place, I'm happy for you.

Looking around at the world, I don't see that collection of "humans are naturally good, it's only laws make them into criminals"

And for myself, absolutely I would be a piece of shit without an external regulatory system. And even secular laws might not be enough, because if I decide "that law is bullshit and I reject your values", then nothing will stop me (except maybe, and don't count on it always and totally working, fear of things like 'the cops'). So yeah - fear of eternal damnation is the external limit that does keep me from doing some shit.

I personally suspect that laws, whether of Man or of God, are merely backstops or last-resorts against defection. What's special is when things are built and rules are followed without the enforcment of limits--or maybe even just the knowledge or visibility of limits. I suppose I'm imagining a world of arrows on floors in opposition to a world of chain-link fences.

Looking around at the world, I don't see that collection of "humans are naturally good, it's only laws make them into criminals"

I'm not making that representation, only that in a middle-class western context being good is pretty easy.

Morality was explained to me in a logical way. People cooperating is generally good. Progress is easier to attain when you don't have to expend resources on defense.

You shouldn't need the fear of god. Start with just small units of people as an exercise. Is it rational to steal from your roommate and put your stuff in their bed? Leave the kitchen covered in food until you all have an infestation of bugs or vermin?

The viciousness, violence, and immorality you see in many places is the result of ignorance and necessity. If you're in an environment where violence is expected, you must prepare for it and perhaps even dish out some of your own. Quite frankly it's a waste of time to be a jerk, since the probability of it paying off for your entire life is minuscule.

I know good, pro-social, well-regulated people. I know crappy, anti-social, disordered people. I know devout religious people (mainly Christian), and I know totally secular atheists. I have yet to notice a strong correlation on the scatterplot of those two axes.

I would add that it's not like secular atheists don't have external regulatory systems, it's just more "I'm not going to do this thing that I might want to do otherwise because all of the people I know and like will think I'm a bad person for doing it" than "God will send me to hell if I do this thing".

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