site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   34969 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of March 6, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

16
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

The vast majority of 'dating advice' young men are given (by the mainstream liberal feminist zeitgeist) is absoluting terrible and only land them in situations like this if they follow through with it.

What "dating advice" outside of porn movies tells young men to introduce themselves: "Hello sweetie. Wanna fuck?"

I do recall a section of one of Feynman's books that amounts to this -- I think you need to be in an environment where people might reasonably want to fuck for this to work. (and you need to be ready to accept being shot down in flames ~95% of the time, which this guy probably was not)

Yes. Feynman was hitting on women in bars, not asking women at Caltech if they were up for it.

I originally wrote "asking women scientists at conferences", but then I realized this might not be the worst place for casual hookups, just don't pick someone from the same field, lay it on thick, but with mutual plausible deniability.

There was definitely an era in the 2010s where the default advice was "Let her know your true intentions. You don't want to be friendzoned." I don't tend to see that too much anymore though.

The case here wasn't an introduction. The dude had known the girl and was friendly with her for a long time. He we told by society to be fully open and honest about his intentions with women and when he did this was lambasted for it. Totally predictable and the dude made a mistake believing what society says rather than seeing what society does, but this discrepancy is very much real. I hope he takes this as a learning lesson.

The dude had known the girl and was friendly with her for a long time.

Not the same as being friends. Imagine a casual acquaintance or someone you work with. You get on, you're friendly, but you don't consider yourselves to be friends. Then one day this guy/girl/whomever asks you "Hey, wanna have a casual sexual relationship where we fuck sometimes, no strings attached?"

Maybe you would consider "Oh Horace, flattered as I am, I'm not ready for a relationship" as a response. Or maybe you would think "Where the fuck did that come out of? We're not that kind of intimates!" Possibly you might even feel uncomfortable around them and try to avoid them.

Or maybe you'd go "Sure, I'm up for a knee-trembler in the stationery cupboard, see you in ten!"

Sure, but that's still not the same as an introduction of "Hello sweetie. Wanna fuck?". I absolutely agree this man broke a ton of unspoken social rules and it's bad, but society as a whole was also telling him (on the face at least) that what he did would be fine and was the right thing to do relative to "try and become friends with her with an ulterior motive".

I hope he takes this as a learning lesson.

Yeah, but I hope he takes the right lesson from it as well. Poor bastard might end up like Scott Aaronson.

Scott Aaronson.

Happily married, if neurotic and insecure?

That only came after the "I seriously considered castrating myself because I was so terrified of causing a girl to accuse me of rape" paranoia the poor divil went through as a teenager.

I can guarantee at some point someone told OP 'just be honest, straightforward and upfront with women and nothing bad will happen, the worst the woman will do is reject you but respect you for being honest.' And he completely understandably took that advice at face value.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats