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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   34966 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of March 6, 2023

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That is an underlying assumption on both sides that if only all the existing social barriers/contracts could be knocked down, utopia would be achievable. This is a fundamentally Rousseauean viewpoint where in violence, inequity, and injustice are all products of living in a society. Meanwhile I find myself barrowing pages from Hobbes and Burke, grand ideas are nice and all, but social barriers/contracts are what ensure that the trash gets picked up, and that supermarket shelves get stocked and that I would argue what makes a civilization.

I don't mean to nitpick, but wouldn't Hobbes agree that other people really are the source of quite a lot of the violence, inequity, and injustice that humans have to deal with?

So that in the first place, I put for a generall inclination of all mankind, a perpetuall and restlesse desire of Power after power, that ceaseth onely in Death. And the cause of this, is not alwayes that a man hopes for a more intensive delight, than he has already attained to; or that he cannot be content with a moderate power: but because he cannot assure the power and means to live well, which he hath present, without the acquisition of more. And from hence it is, that Kings, whose power is greatest, turn their endeavours to the assuring it a home by Lawes, or abroad by Wars: and when that is done, there succeedeth a new desire; in some, of Fame from new Conquest; in others, of ease and sensuall pleasure; in others, of admiration, or being flattered for excellence in some art, or other ability of the mind.

(Leviathan, Ch. XI)

Which is why, the only thing for it is precisely to have some omnipotent force come in and enforce order through threat of overwhelming, insuperable force:

Againe, men have no pleasure, (but on the contrary a great deale of griefe) in keeping company, where there is no power able to over-awe them all.

(Id., Ch. XIII), and

Justice And Propriety Begin With The Constitution of Common-wealth But because Covenants of mutuall trust, where there is a feare of not performance on either part, (as hath been said in the former Chapter,) are invalid; though the Originall of Justice be the making of Covenants; yet Injustice actually there can be none, till the cause of such feare be taken away; which while men are in the naturall condition of Warre, cannot be done. Therefore before the names of Just, and Unjust can have place, there must be some coercive Power, to compell men equally to the performance of their Covenants, by the terrour of some punishment, greater than the benefit they expect by the breach of their Covenant; and to make good that Propriety, which by mutuall Contract men acquire, in recompence of the universall Right they abandon. . .

(Id., Ch. XV)

Even for Hobbes, a society is only actually civil if it accords with certain precepts of justice; if it does not, then no matter the fripperies and trapping of life, the base warring nature of man takes over again:

[N]o man giveth, but with intention of Good to himselfe; because Gift is Voluntary; and of all Voluntary Acts, the Object is to every man his own Good; of which if men see they shall be frustrated, there will be no beginning of benevolence, or trust; nor consequently of mutuall help; nor of reconciliation of one man to another; and therefore they are to remain still in the condition of War; which is contrary to the first and Fundamentall Law of Nature, which commandeth men to Seek Peace. The breach of this Law, is called Ingratitude

(Id., Ch. XV)

I think that's perfectly compatible with many alt-right claims; particularly the claims that current society has broken down (or is in the process of breaking down) and no longer follows the basic precepts of justice. Under those circumstances, it no longer makes sense in Hobbesian terms to "be modest, and tractable, and performe all he promises," because doing so "where no man els should do so, should but make himselfe a prey to others, and procure his own certain ruine, contrary to the ground of all Lawes of Nature, which tend to Natures preservation."

Once someone realizes they're being defected against in the game of civilization, they've been thrown back into the Hobbesian state of War, and are justified in looking out for the Big Idea - the "coercive Power, to compell men equally to the performance of their Covenants, by the terrour of some punishment, greater than the benefit they expect by the breach of their Covenant..."

Of course the big idea isn't actually perfectly realizable, any more than Hobbesian man is capable of "assur[ing] for ever, the way of his future desire." But the point is that in pursuing it, one attempts to reassert sovereignty over warring passions and defections - the prerequisite for the formation of a just society in the first place.

I don't mean to nitpick, but wouldn't Hobbes agree that other people really are the source of quite a lot of the violence, inequity, and injustice that humans have to deal with?

Yes, but the difference is whether the social barriers/contracts/taboos etc.. we erect are the source of these problems or a bulwark against them. Is peace, prosperity and egalitarianism the "default state"? Or is it a hard-won victory that must be actively cultivated by each successive generation if it is to be maintained? That is the fundamental point of disagreement.

Well, I don't think Rousseau actually proposes that peace, prosperity, and egalitarianism is "default" to humans. After all, the first line of "Emile" is "Everything is good as it comes from the hands of the Author of Nature [i.e. God], but everything degenerates in the hands of man." Moreover, remember that the societies that Hobbes and Rousseau were dealing with were two very different things, and so when each speaks of "society" they're not actually talking about the same thing. I'd bet that Hobbes, confronted with the ridiculously-ossified nonsense of the French ancien regime would not have failed to condemn it as strongly as Rousseau did ("these two words, country and citizen, ought to be expunged from modern languages!"). Similarly, I can't think that Rousseau would have held to his extreme atomistic individualism if he had lived through the horrifying warfare and social turmoil that Hobbes did. Also, Rousseau's optimism has to be read against the ridiculously dour Calvinism that ruled the Geneva of his youth.

But now I really am nitpicking. Sorry!

After all, the first line of "Emile" is "Everything is good as it comes from the hands of the Author of Nature [i.e. God], but everything degenerates in the hands of man."

I feel like your quote only reinforces my point. The Rousseauean take is that "good" is the default and that everything else (ie evil/degeneracy) is the artifice of man. And while we can theorize about what positions Rousseau might have held had he grown up under different circumstances, fact is that he didn't and that his theories still hold a great deal of influence.

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