site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   29600 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 6, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

11
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Yes, I am sure that is the point, and it is an extremely dubious one, but it still seems to me that the relative contribution compared to some hypothetical alternative is not particularly relevant.

Eg: Years ago, I made a bunch of money in the stock market, based on recommendation from a friend. That friend deserves my thanks, and perhaps even recompense (reparations, if you will), even if some other person might have given me even better advice. My friend provided me a service, at my behest, just as slaves did. Was their contribution enough, and their subsequent recompense sufficiently meager, such that reparations are in order? I don't know; I rather doubt it, and IMHO a much better argument for reparations is re post-Civil War treatment of African-Americans, or based on equities unrelated to the extent of slaves' economic contributions. However, it certainly does not make sense to me to enslave someone for 20 years, and then when they ask for a share of my profits, respond, "But, I now realize that my business would have been even more profitable, had I relied on free labor." That does not seem to me to be a very compelling argument.

Years ago, I made a bunch of money in the stock market, based on recommendation from a friend. That friend deserves my thanks, and perhaps even recompense (reparations, if you will), even if some other person might have given me even better advice.

Let's say your friend tells you to buy Apple stock and you make a 3% return. But the market as a whole went up 5% in the same period. If you had just given no thought to the matter and bought a total stock market index fund like VTSAX, you would have performed better. In that case, I don't think it's correct to say your friend deserves any thanks or credit for his recommendation. He didn't really help you in any meaningful way, since your default option was better than his suggestion.

Yes, but who says that using free market labor was the default option? Apparently, it wasn't, at least in the eyes of the landowners at the time. Moreover. they went out and compelled Africans to come to the US to work. As I said, " it certainly does not make sense to me to enslave someone for 20 years, and then when they ask for a share of my profits, respond, "But, I now realize that my business would have been even more profitable, had I relied on free labor." That does not seem to me to be a very compelling argument."

However, it certainly does not make sense to me to enslave someone for 20 years, and then when they ask for a share of my profits

That analogy doesn't fit the question. Blacks benefit from America being prosperous. (Or if they don't, it's because of factors other than slavery.) There's no share of your profits to ask for. There's a share of a pool, but the money would have ended up in the pool whether you enslaved anyone or not.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats