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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   34944 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 30, 2023

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What is your definition of antagonistic?

You'd have to be more hostile than an expected baseline. What the west is doing is normal. Competing powers do not turn down free real estate for nothing.

You didn't answer my question, what if they decide that the press criticizing russia is antagonizing, does that fly? It's not up to them to define what is antagonizing. A schizo may find it antagonizing that you breathe in his presence, it doesn't make it so.

If so, then it is antagonistic. I'm not saying party A shouldn't do antagonistic things.

We're getting bogged down: I think antagonizing can be morally condemned, and the west isn't doing it. But if you want to call the west's behaviour antagonizing, yet do not recognize any moral value to antagonizing, then antagonizing is fine, so we've both agreed on not condemning the west's behaviour and all that remains are semantics. Or do you wish to attach some other form of condemnation to the term?

Btw, 'to fuck over' has moral value, no?

but I don't agree that avoiding conflict with russia actually would be to their own detriment

What does it mean morally to 'avoid conflict'? If France said they will declare war unless the US hands over Martha's vineyard, you can avoid conflict. Russia's little demands have to be justified by more than their strong feelings and their threats.

You act like my position is totally unheard of but the concept of "balance of powers" is not alien.

To have a balance of power, you need the rival powers to be balanced, and they are not. Russia is very weak compared to the EU, and completely outclassed by the US. Russia is about as strong as their former colonies put together, and you can't pretend to rule a sphere that is as strong as you and hates you. That would really be unstable.

You'd have to be more hostile than an expected baseline. What the west is doing is normal. Competing powers do not turn down free real estate for nothing.

I've been clear that I agree with that. I don't expect the west to behave any differently than it is.

You didn't answer my question, what if they decide that the press criticizing russia is antagonizing, does that fly? It's not up to them to define what is antagonizingI

I suppose it is antagonistic on the part of the newspaper but that doesn't seem very relevant. It isn't USG or the west being antagonistic its the press, and I would expect a state to ignore that for the most part.

A schizo may find it antagonizing that you breathe in his presence, it doesn't make it so.

Ok. I said that "antagonizing" was choosing to do something that with the knowledge that it would bother the other party, not just bothering the other party. But I think your point is fair. I can see the argument that the western hegemony trying to expand and take "free real estate" is as natural to an ascendant hegemony as breathing, and therefore, Russia being annoyed by it is fully schizo. I don't really agree, but I follow your argument.

We're getting bogged down:

Yeah we are. Cards on the table I think I've found myself defending an increasingly pedantic argument.

I think antagonizing can be morally condemned,

I still don't totally get this position. Antagonizing is never justified?

But if you want to call the west's behaviour antagonizing, yet do not recognize any moral value to antagonizing, then antagonizing is fine, so we've both agreed on not condemning the west's behaviour and all that remains are semantics. Or do you wish to attach some other form of condemnation to the term?

I largely agree with this. It is sometimes ok to antagonize. I don't think this situation does justify the west antagonizing Russia, so I do have a moral judgement against it. But that's not because all antagonism is wrong. Specifically this antagonism is wrong. I have unfortunately mired myself in the semantic weeds here. I shouldn't have started an argument about the definition of antagonism. I should have said that what the west is doing in ukraine is simply wrong. It is certainly antagonistc, and also it is wrong. It also is unavoidable.

Btw, 'to fuck over' has moral value, no?

Fair enough. Instead of "I assume that they will use their leverage to fuck over their opponents" how about "I assume they will use their leverage to further increase their postion and weaken the position of their opponents".

What does it mean morally to 'avoid conflict'? If France said they will declare war unless the US hands over Martha's vineyard, you can avoid conflict. Russia's little demands have to be justified by more than their strong feelings and their threats.

I think you know where I stand on this. My stance on americas stake in ukraine is that if we stayed out of it, that would lower the chance of escalating conflicts between america and russia. I don't see what we gain from accepting ukraine into the western hegemony - it seems only useful in terms of strengthening our position in the grand conflict between america and russia, which is something I would prefer we fully navigated around. I don't want to prepare to win in a war with russia, I would like to avoid that war, and I don't see what we get from accepting Ukraine besides weakening russia. I fully expect conflict between america and russia to escalate, but I wish it wouldn't.

The question of France demanding Martha's vineyard doesn't seem like a good equivalent example.

To have a balance of power, you need the rival powers to be balanced, and they are not. Russia is very weak compared to the EU, and completely outclassed by the US. Russia is about as strong as their former colonies put together, and you can't pretend to rule a sphere that is as strong as you and hates you. That would really be unstable.

Prior to the war in Ukraine I would have disagreed, but it's hard for me to make that case now. I guess you're right. That seems like a very bad thing.

Yeah we are. Cards on the table I think I've found myself defending an increasingly pedantic argument.

Good for you, doesn’t happen all that often. To me, antagonizing is not justified by definition, but in the spirit of admitting, I’m not sure I can back that up with the standard definition, and the real point of disagreement here is whether the west’s actions are justified, no matter the definition of antagonizing, as we said. Nevertheless, in the interest of pedantry, can you antagonize an avowed enemy? Or, can you antagonize a guy in self defense? (I’m not saying russia is necessarily an avowed enemy, or the west’s actions self defense).

Fair enough. Instead of "I assume that they will use their leverage to fuck over their opponents" how about "I assume they will use their leverage to further increase their postion and weaken the position of their opponents".

But this happens even between the tightest of allies, the best of friends. The US-Britain alliance couldn’t stop the US from interfering in the Suez Crisis and US decolonization efforts against britain and france. Refusing an alliance from another power’s sphere without compensation is not the baseline, it would be insanely friendly behaviour. It’s essentially putting their interests above yours, self-sacrifice.

I don't want to prepare to win in a war with russia, I would like to avoid that war, and I don't see what we get from accepting Ukraine besides weakening russia.

What I meant is that 'avoiding war' sounds good, when really it erases the agency of the other party who declares war, the moral responsibility of the war in the france case in fact rests entirely on her shoulders. You say you expect ‘the conflict’ to escalate, but the conflict doesn’t do anything, it’s an inanimate object. Russia, like France, will escalate if they don’t get what they want. You say Martha's vineyard is important to the US, and ukraine is not, but it is the same moral calculation whether the opponent extorts a trillion or 2 dollars.

Sidenote, ukraine may be unimportant to the US in the grand scheme of things, but that argument doesn't apply to the allied european powers. You've got a concentric ring of powers (ukraine, eastern europeans, western europeans, US) with decreasing interest in ukraine but ascending power. So that as their distance to ukraine increases and their interest decreases, it is compensated by a power-borne decreased acceptance of any guff (might makes right arguments) from russia.

can you antagonize an avowed enemy?

Yes. There are many situations where avowed enemies tiptoe around each other and do their best to avoid any escalation of conflict. Mutually Assured Destruction would be an example of a situation where two avowed enemies would actively try to not antagonize each other, because of the potential consequences. In fact I think that's a really good example of what I mean by antagonism. The kind of action you would avoid in such a situation.

Or, can you antagonize a guy in self defense?

No. If the enemy attacks you and you harm them in self defense, I could certainly imagine the enemy claiming that that was an act of antagonism (in fact that may be the default claim in such a case) but from an omniscient 3rd person perspective that would not be antagonism.

Fair enough. Instead of "I assume that they will use their leverage to fuck over their opponents" how about "I assume they will use their leverage to further increase their postion and weaken the position of their opponents".

But this happens even between the tightest of allies, the best of friends. The US-Britain alliance couldn’t stop the US from interfering in the Suez Crisis and US decolonization efforts against britain and france. Refusing an alliance from another power’s sphere without compensation is not the baseline, it would be insanely friendly behaviour. It’s essentially putting their interests above yours, self-sacrifice.

I don't disagree with anything you've said here. I'm not sure how that is an argument against my pedantic point. I'm continuing to argue my pedantic point at this juncture because you have requested it, to be clear.

Those actions may or may not be acts of antagonism. I think between allies I might be more likely to call it just rude, but there is little difference. If the US did something it thought would really truly cross the line in offending its ally, then that would clearly be antagonism.

What I meant is that 'avoiding war' sounds good, when really it erases the agency of the other party who declares war, the moral responsibility of the war in the france case in fact rests entirely on her shoulders. You say you expect ‘the conflict’ to escalate, but the conflict doesn’t do anything, it’s an inanimate object. Russia, like France, will escalate if they don’t get what they want. You say Martha's vineyard is important to the US, and ukraine is not, but it is the same moral calculation whether the opponent extorts a trillion or 2 dollars.

I feel like you are being intentionally obtuse in interpreting my position on this. The united states can have an aggressive warlike posture with russia, or a neutral posture, or a friendly posture, or a conciliatory posture. Do you disagree with that?

I don't think that Ukraine is not important to the US. Ukraine may very well be important to the US tactically, but I would like to have a neutral posture with russia. Ideally even a friendly posture with russia. I think everyone would benefit from us finding a path of cooperation between America and Russia, and I see inviting Ukraine into the Western hegemony as indicative of an aggressive posture. A move that may be tactically essential in the case we go to full war with russia, but tactically not relevant if we can find a path towards my preferred future in which we cooperate with russia.

I would like to let Russia have Ukraine in the pursuit of cooperation between West and Russia, something that I think is not an insane position but I think you write off out of hand for moral reasons that are not part of the pedantic component of this argument.

I do not see embracing Ukraine as an act of glorious liberation. I think you do. Beyond the pedantic argument I think this may be the fundamental disagreement. That is fair.

Finally:

To me, antagonizing is not justified by definition

I really don't get this. Why would it be definitely unjustified in all cases? You think it always wrong to intentionally annoy or bully your enemy? On what grounds?

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