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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   31660 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 9, 2023

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I don't think it's intellectually fair to use the word "genocide" (which most people associate with the physical extermination of people) in relation to a situation where children from an orphanage in Mariupol are sent to an orphanage in Russia.

Do you consider restrictions on the study of the Russian language in eastern Ukraine a genocide?

The Russians will be brutal regardless, and will continue to be brutal over any Ukrainian territory they control both now and potentially in the future.

Probably the exact opposite is true. Russians will not be cruel to the local population no matter what, because they consider the local population to be Russian.

Probably the exact opposite is true. Russians will not be cruel to the local population no matter what, because they consider the local population to be Russian.

Evidence suggests otherwise.

I don't think it's intellectually fair to use the word "genocide" (which most people associate with the physical extermination of people) in relation to a situation where children from an orphanage in Mariupol are sent to an orphanage in Russia.

If you don't think it's fair to apply the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, a convention of over 70 years of establishment international law, which even Russia is a a party to, for international standards of genocide, I question your standards of intellectual fairness.

Do you consider restrictions on the study of the Russian language in eastern Ukraine a genocide?

No, nor do they meet the international standard of it. Per Article II of the convention-

Article II

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with

intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as

such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its

physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

The Russians will be brutal regardless, and will continue to be brutal over any Ukrainian territory they control both now and potentially in the future.

Probably the exact opposite is true. Russians will not be cruel to the local population no matter what, because they consider the local population to be Russian.

Black Comedy can be found in thinking the Russian state wouldn't be cruel to Russians. Evidence of Russian cruelty to Ukrainians under Russian occupation can be found from Bucha to Kherson.

If you don't think it's fair to apply the Convention on the Prevention and

Get rid of bureaucratic nonsense. I think that this word in everyday use has a completely different meaning.

can be found from Bucha to Kherson.

Both Russians and Ukrainians constantly claim that they find torture chambers in the occupied territories, this is probably just information garbage.

If we talk about Bucha, then we are talking about the alleged incident with the execution of men mistaken for artillery spotters, a guy on a bicycle who unsuccessfully rode onto a convoy preparing for battle and many civilians killed by Ukrainian artillery.

Get rid of bureaucratic nonsense. I think that this word in everyday use has a completely different meaning.

No, I decline to defer to your appeal for definition gerrymandering.

Many people use words wrong, but this is one whose context was specified, and whose definition for the scope of genocide has been an established part of international law longer than you've been alive.

And, you know, was refered to via the reference of international standards, to prevent confusion.

Both Russians and Ukrainians constantly claim that they find torture chambers in the occupied territories, this is probably just information garbage.

Well, that's one way to describe inconvenient UN investigations.

https://documents-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N22/637/72/PDF/N2263772.pdf?OpenElement

If we talk about Bucha, then we are talking about the alleged incident with the execution of men mistaken for artillery spotters, a guy on a bicycle who unsuccessfully rode onto a convoy preparing for battle and many civilians killed by Ukrainian artillery.

No, we're talking about the one involving torture and summary executions of civilians, as well as bodies being left in the streets for over a week as identified by commercial imagery despite Russian claims that the bodies were staged by Ukrainian forces as part of false allegations.

Soldiers who shoot at any moving target during battle - yes. The massacre of combatants, whom the soldiers consider to be combatants (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_massacre) - yes.

But when a party that clearly has a conflict of interest and uses the statements of the Ukrainian government, which is quite often lying, starts telling stories that are clearly designed for an emotional reaction and are implausible from the point of view of hypothetical actors - I show a lot of skepticism.

Soldiers who shoot at any moving target during battle - yes. The massacre of combatants, whom the soldiers consider to be combatants (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_massacre) - yes.

And in the Bucha case, the shooting of people bound in basements and in other places and forms of captivity.

But when a party that clearly has a conflict of interest and uses the statements of the Ukrainian government, which is quite often lying, starts telling stories that are clearly designed for an emotional reaction and are implausible from the point of view of hypothetical actors - I show a lot of skepticism.

Fortunately, the UN is not a party of the conflict, and used the statements of people they themselves interviewed along with sites they were granted access to, including sites and personnel that incriminated Ukrainians.

Russians will not be cruel to the local population no matter what, because they consider the local population to be Russian.

Unfortunately for the Russians, the Ukrainians get a say as well and it is very clear that they do not consider themselves Russians, in fact they are willing to kill and die over this very point.

The Russians will be cruel because reality conflicts with what they have imagined it to be.

But in all honesty this explanation is not needed either way, the Russians will be callously brutal institutionally and commit random acts of cruelty individually, because that is an intrinsic component of the Russian way of war. My source for this claim is the past hundred years of Russian military history and the enduring hatred towards Russia from the various peoples who have come into conflict with them.

clear that they do not consider themselves Russians, in fact they are willing to kill and die over this very point.

Well, this is definitely not true for Donbass or Melitopol.

Where we see both people who are ready to kill in order to NOT be Ukrainians and people who are generally loyal to the Russian government.

rom the various peoples who have come into conflict with them.

I would be interested to know which countries improved their opinion of each other after the war.

Well, this is definitely not true for Donbass or Melitopol.

Where we see both people who are ready to kill in order to NOT be Ukrainians and people who are generally loyal to the Russian government.

Did you read it on Grey Zone?

EDIT: you can argue about Donbass (never been there), especially LDNR. But I lived for a long period of time in a small town on the coast of Azov Sea, an hour-long drive from Melitopol, I generally know attitude of people there.

I left Lugansk in 2014. It is strange how someone does not understand that all the people there sincerely hate Ukrainians. And yes, the East of Ukraine has always been pro-Russian. Lviv raguli - of course not.

And yes, the East of Ukraine has always been pro-Russian.

Do you think that this really can be said to apply now?

Don't know. For the last 6 years, I have interacted with Ukrainians only on 2ch, and even then rarely.

But I think that having the opportunity to choose and not being afraid of reprisals from the SBU, the majority in the east would prefer Russia. Russia is corny richer, less crime, better infrastructure and government, and no one would have to change either their culture or their language.

By the way, how people live in Donetsk and Luhansk now? Good? Did they benefit from all those oil money? I guess people like a former MMM conman made governor, or a former bank robber made military commander did. Can they express their position freely, and not to afraid of reprisals from MGB/FSB, or "podvals"? I guess it's Russia now, life should be great.

Did they benefit from the war started by Ukraine? Of course not.

But I see a lot of irony in the fact that in 2022 Ukrainians stopped thinking that cutting off gas, water and electricity is very funny.

More comments

Luhansk ukrainophobe who rarely interacts with his former compatriots apart from on FSB controlled imageboard tells someone from Eastern Ukraine what's the general attitude of people there. Priceless.

less crime

Check the statistics?

better infrastructure and government

Authoritarian government led by a 70-year old KGB completely detached from reality hyena?

But I think that having the opportunity to choose and not being afraid of reprisals from the SBU

Dude, you live in a country where FSB can just force a kettlebell in your anus in the presence of your girlfriend, because you recited an offensive verse. Lack of self-awareness on some people, geez.

"Хохлосрач, хохлосрач никогда не меняется."- Фаллаут, наверное.

This dispute has been going on for decades and never leads to anything. And in any case, instantly turn into throwing shit at the monitor.

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