site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 2, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

10
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

whether poverty was sufficient to explain disparate crime rates

There is no way that any factor is sufficient to explain any phenomenon that involves human behavior.

I ended up citing https://www.city-journal.org/poverty-and-violent-crime-dont-go-hand-in-hand this study, which goes into the poverty level of NYC of different ethnicities,

I don't think that is particularly helpful, because it defines "poverty" as "below the official poverty line plus adjustments," which is actually pretty high. What about more extreme poverty? If you look at the Census Bureau income spreadsheet here, it says that, at the national level, the pct of Asian American household with income under 15,000 in 2019 was 6.3% versus 17% for "Black only." Similarly, according to the chart on page 4 here, in 2018 the pct of 9-yr-olds in deep poverty (1/2 of the official poverty line) nationally was 3 percent for Asian Americans and 18 percent for African Americans.

Moreover, the data he uses includes COVID relief -- in fact, the key takeaway from the study he links to is that "the poverty rate in New York City actually fell between 2019 and 2020" as a result of COVID relief. Nationally, the poverty rate in 2019 for Asian Americans appears to have been a tad less than half that of African Americans.

I would also note that the linked article refers only to violent crime, whereas you initially referred to crime rates in general. Poverty might well be a better predictor the propensity to commit property crimes, for example. As the article you linked to notes, "A major reason is that crimes of violence are usually motivated by quarrels, personal grudges, perceived insults, and similar interpersonal conflicts, not by economic necessity."

And, of course, to really figure out the effect, if any, of poverty on propensity to commit crimes, you have to control for all sorts of factors, including [immigrant status](Immigrant Assimilation and Crime: Generational Differences in Youth Violence in Chicago), an obvious confounder if you are looking at ethnic groups in NYC ("API individuals in NYC are much more likely to be foreign-born than other racial groups. In 2019, there were 71 percent foreign-born API immigrants in the City compared to Hispanics (39 percent), Black (32 percent) and White (22 percent) immigrants. Overall, 36 percent of the City’s population is foreign-born."

So, while your friend is obviously wrong to say that poverty is a sufficient cause of crime, figuring out the extent to which poverty (or anything else) does or does not contribute to the propensity to commit crimes is a daunting task.