site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   16082 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 19, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

16
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

White people in x000BC committed a lot of what we'd now call 'violent crime'. Black violent crime seems very culturally contingent (although easily related to IQ in that contingency) - take even a particularly dumb black person and put them in japan as a baby and I don't think you'd get anywhere near american crime rate.

Not convinced 'time preference' is a real thing separate from intelligence, survival as a hunter-gatherer requires a lot of long-term planning, and 'africa was nicer for survival than europe' isn't really true (and even if it was, africa is a big place with lots of variation, there would be niches that were hard to survive in).

Not convinced 'time preference' is a real thing separate from intelligence

Theres MAOA 2R allele which increases chance to be arrested for doing crime significantly yet no effect on intelligence.

I believe candidate gene studies like that didn't replicate, and individual alleles with that large of an effect aren't really a thing.

This doesn't exclude black people having a bunch of different alleles with small individual effects that add up to something big, but that particular allele isn't it.

Most "candidate genes" didn't replicate, but MAOA did. There was also recently replication from Russia (albeit not for 2R, which they got only one individual)

https://psychiatr.ru/files/magazines/2020_04_obozr_1584.pdf

The effect of 2R (in males) is so big that they even compare 2R vs all other, i.e. older-known "bad" 3R allele becomes "good" in this comparison.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24326626/

Effect of low activity MAOA replicates in controlled expirements on mice very well. Main cause you don't hear about it is because of obscurantists.

having a bunch of different alleles with small individual effects that add up to something big

sure there's other alleles which effects add, my point is separation of time preference from intelligence is already established, and burden of proof on you.

and 'africa was nicer for survival than europe' isn't really true

Now many species of Primates inhabit Africa, and how many inhabit Europe?

there would be niches that were hard to survive in).

Like which ones?

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats