This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I loved Ancillary Justice. It did not deserve to get dragged through the mud just because some people were mean to Larry Correia on the internet. It certainly starts out quite opaque, but it rewards attentive reading.
Given the publicity surrounding its use of feminine pronouns for every character, you could be forgiven for thinking that this is a book about gender. In fact, I was pleasantly surprised to discover that this is really a book that is not about gender. The Imperial Radch is a deeply flawed society with a great deal of systemic injustice -- and it doesn't have gender (as we understand it) and it doesn't have race (as we understand it). So it's a book about systemic injustice that has very carefully excised the main two identity markers that we usually associate with that sort of thing. It takes away the compass that the average social justice advocate would use, and asks readers to learn to navigate anew.
I thought the body horror aspects were excellently handled, creeping up on the reader precisely because they are so normal to the narrator. I also found Anaander Mianaai's troubles with herself to be predictable in the manner of a successful Chekhov's gun -- the sort of thing where you ask "but what if..." partway through the book and then learn later (to great readerly satisfaction) that, indeed, if. On the whole, there is a general theme of throwing the reader into the deep end of some massive cultural and technological differences. If you enjoy subtle clues and tricky empathy leaps, it's a really good book.
Perhaps I was too harsh to the book, I think the huge praise it got and the relatively flat beginning threw me for a loop. I only finished about a fifth before setting it down.
I'm actually pretty okay with getting thrown into the deep end of a world, Malazan Book of the Fallen is my favorite speculative fiction series by far. If I had to pinpoint it, I'd say my main issue is that the world doesn't seem to make sense from a technical perspective, for instance the massive tech difference between the Radch and the Nilk, and the whole AI needing human bodies thing. I suppose it could be explained away as social issues, but I am generally pretty skeptical of galaxy spanning civilizations with godlike technology still having colonies where people have to perform a ton of manual labor, and have little to no real infrastructure.
Well, the tech difference is at least partly because this is an empire that conquers first and develops later, right? It's located somewhere in the same space as colonial Britain or ancient Rome. Conquest is definitely the main idea, and then assimilating the conquered peoples into your high tech, highly "cultured" society is also important, because that's how you keep the empire stable, but it takes longer.
I never really thought about the conditions that would lead to the usefulness of human ancillaries, I have to admit. I mostly took that part for granted. Some of the ships/AIs do have discussions later on about the relative merits of humans and robots, and they seem to subjectively prefer the former, possibly because the former has subjectivity. I don't really remember if the whole thing was actually explained in any depth, though, and I can see it being something that varies in plausibility depending on the reader. I guess that's true of a lot of world-building, in that there are always going to be things that work better for some people than others.
I more meant the Radch people on these backwaters (and in Ors). They have no implants, no real changes in their day to day tech (like phones/VR/AR type deal). It boggles the mind that after many millenia and conquering an entire galaxy, the military upper crust of this society is just like... a 21st century human. Totally breaks immersion for me.
Peter Hamilton's Commonwealth Saga is a great explanation of how to do this better. Also Gravity Dreams by L.E. Modesitt jr.
This is probably where I diverge most from what other people are saying about the book. It is so far beyond what I consider realistic it's basically a deal breaker unless it's addressed early and well.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link