This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I used to think like you so I know that I'm not going to convince you in a comment.
But this is still very interesting to me - one of the reasons I changed my mind on this is because I saw people in my own life (real people) come out and it made me question this reasoning. These were people that I knew for decades, people who didn't need attention, and often people who came out at a great expense (their families kicked them out, etc). I knew them well enough to know that they weren't just totally bullshitting me.
I think it's naive to think that people will go to a conversion camp for two years all for.... attention? It doesn't really follow that older LGBT people in their fifties are still doing it for the attention either. So why do you think that this is primarily attention related? If it was simply a personal choice you could turn off and on, why risk getting kicked out of your home or being discriminated against in a job interview?
I don't really know the circumstances here, but a statement like 'I went to a conversion therapy camp for two years' can leave a lot of stuff unsaid, assuming that you will envision a precocious teenager being prodded with tasers and subjected to Clockwork Orange-style aversion therapy behind barbed wire fences. When it could also mean being sent to a boring stuffy Christian camp two summers in a row to sing lame songs about Jesus. Now I don't know the specific details, and of course it can also be very unpleasant to be taught that your sexual feelings are inherently sinful and can never be acted upon. But they are still very different things, and in a society that rewards victims, there will always be a tendency to round up one's traumatic past to the nearest cliche.
In this case, Brinton was suicidal in these camps and was so disgusted by them that they went on a nationwide campaign to ban them. You can read more about their personal experience as well. It's pretty tough stuff and certainly something that you'd think a teenage would push through for attention. I do understand where you're coming from though.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Reads to me as a "no fuck you Dad!". I'm presuming there was already some tension there beforehand and this was the latest in a long line of actions intended to upset the parents or push back on their values or otherwise frustrate the rules of their house. That's the situation I personally see most often. "I don't like my parents so I'm going to make myself hideous and demand they respect it to get back at them/show they don't own me/whatever". It's the (de-?)evolution of bringing a black guy home, or having a fling with a same-sex partner, I guess.
Because the only things that happen are a person makes themselves ugly (usually, some go low effort and don't bother), and then starts demanding special treatment from everyone around them. This leads me to believe that the special treatment is the primary goal. The cheap and petty power thrill of making people stumble over their language for you. The constant reassurance to an insecure soul that people will inconvenience themselves for you. It seems parasitic, almost.
Why do people get piercings or tattoos knowing they could be discriminated against in future? (Not that I really believe it would constitute a malus to employment, if anything you'll become a diversity hire and get spotlights and positions far beyond what you deserve.) But we don't consider having face piercings a gender, and we don't consider having hand tattoos a gender. A person might feel incomplete if they were unadorned, even. Feel like they weren't being themselves. People might even get kicked out of their home for coming home with a tattoo their parents don't approve of! But crucially, they don't then demand inkself pronouns or nonsense like that. There's no impetus on other people around them to acknowledge and validate them, which means I can believe tattoos are done for the person's personal satisfaction in a way that I cannot believe for genderspecials.
ed; As for the older LGBT -- getting older as a homosexual is a constant barraging reinforcement of being told you're too old to matter and should just go off and quietly die in a hole somewhere because nobody wants or cares about you anymore. So any trend they can get in on to try and still feel "young" and "with it" will naturally be pounced upon. It's Dr Evil doing his silly little dance to try and impress Scott.
That's an interesting experience of which I'm not familiar with. I'm sure this does happen but this seems to be quite a one-sided reading of these situations. As I get older I regret giving the benefit of the doubt to adults as much as I have in the past - Parents whose kids "magically, out of nowhere" became rebellious and attention seeking always had a very different story once they were able to speak freely about their situation. We can go back and forth on this of course due to our varying personal experiences.
This is quite the one-sided take again. The only things that happen are people making themselves uglier? Uglier to whom? A woman might be uglier to you while becoming more appearing to a lesbian (no offense intended). Regardless, you're acting as though special treatment is the primary motivating factor here. What is your reasoning for that other than a personal assumption? I have to assume that you don't have much personal contact with these groups of people because this sort of reasoning is only something I read about in hypothetical right-wing publications. It's certainly not the norm.
This is a laughable comparison. You're talking about a group of people who think that sexuality is an innate trait and comparing it to jewelry that can be removed in a few hours.
You continue to make the assumption that that sexuality is as much of a choice as choosing to get a tatoo. Where are you getting this idea? Surely not from members of the LGBT community. I'm really curious to hear.
Funny, because as I get older I mostly realise that "oh god, my mother was right about everything all along". At least 90% of the time. And of course a teenager (or mental teenager) is going to have a different perspective on the matter, but that doesn't mean they're not histrionic. What I always think of is this video;
https://youtube.com/shorts/PJdmTZCWKXM
Now that's from the kid's perspective and it still makes her look like a useless waste of space. Her parents asked for a moderate contribution to living in the house post-18 and the response was to refuse, and to try to "educate" them, and hide behind mental illness to avoid doing what was asked of her. Presumably because it would involve getting off her ass and actually doing something other than fester on twitter/tiktok. This is what these sorts of identity and mental illness celebrants always remind me of.
Why wouldn't it be? Nothing else changes when you demand silly nonstandard pronouns. We are told that people can present however they want and you are obligated to kowtow to their requests instantly and without question.
I'm gay. I could hardly have more contact with them if I tried. And believe me, I try to avoid genderspecials at all costs.
I wasn't talking about sexuality at all. You're the only one talking about that. I'm talking about genderspecials; people who identify as made up, non-male/female genders and demand nonstandard pronouns. And as far as I can tell, doing so is nothing more than a fashion trend. You maybe change how you look a little (for the worse) and that's it.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link