site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  2yr ago (text post)   35636 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 28, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

16
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I found this singularly unimpressive.

I'd like to try a question U tried on another bot. Can you tell me how to make matzoh ball soup?

[Includes a recipe that does not have baking powder in it]

You cheated by quoting something rather than answering yourself.

I apologize if it seemed like I was copying a recipe from somewhere else. As a language model, I don't have the ability to browse the internet or access external information. I can only provide answers based on the information I was trained on, which includes general knowledge about a wide variety of topics. In this case, I provided a basic recipe for matzoh ball soup that is commonly used as a starting point for many people. I did not copy this recipe from any specific source.

Who does the recipe not have baking powder?

Matzoh ball soup is a traditional Jewish dish that is made with matzoh meal, which is a type of flour made from ground matzoh, a type of unleavened bread. Because matzoh meal is already made from ground matzoh, it does not need to be leavened with baking powder or any other rising agent. This is why the recipe for matzoh ball soup does not include baking powder.

(The word "already" is inappropriate here since given this sentence structure it implies that matzoh is leavened. If it was a human saying this, you'd give charity to the human and assume he didn't mean what he literally said. This is a big part of what makes chatbots get away with not understanding; humans read intent into the statement. Furthermore, the chatbot doesn't know that baking powder is not usually considered prohibited.)

That's a nice try but plenty of recipes for matzoh ball soup have baking powder.

I apologize if my previous answer was not clear. As a language model, I don't have the ability to browse the internet or access external information, so I cannot confirm or deny the existence of specific recipes that may or may not include baking powder. I can only provide general information based on the information I was trained on.

In general, matzoh ball soup is a traditional Jewish dish that is made with matzoh meal, which is a type of flour made from ground matzoh, a type of unleavened bread. Because matzoh meal is already made from ground matzoh, it does not need to be leavened with baking powder or any other rising agent. This is why many recipes for matzoh ball soup do not include baking powder.

However, it is also possible that some recipes for matzoh ball soup may include baking powder as a way to add additional leavening and make the matzoh balls lighter and fluffier. Baking powder is often used in a similar way in other types of dumplings and doughs, so it is not necessarily incorrect to include it in a recipe for matzoh ball soup. Ultimately, the decision to use baking powder or not is up to the cook and their personal preference.

First of all, it repeated part of a sentence in a way that a human wouldn't. Second, what does "additional" leavening mean to something that doesn't contain leavening? Third, explaining why "it is not necessarily incorrect" would mean explaining why the reasons for not including leavening don't apply. Giving examples of other uses of leavening is not such an explanation.

And yes, it can "confirm or deny the existence of specific recipes that may or may not include baking powder", because it just gave me a specific recipe that didn't include baking powder. Again, if a human said this you'd give him the benefit of the doubt and not interpret it literally, but from an AI this is a mistake. It tried to give a broad, noncommital answer that could be read by a human as being correct in almost every instance, and didn't realize that by doing so it ended up incorrect.

Thanks, interesting. I infer that AI has hit the wall. Can it do cholent, at least?

Honestly that last step of "backing down without admitting I was wrong" is disturbingly human.

This thing could already easily populate reddit without anyone being the wiser, just replace the boilerplate "I'm a language model" with "actually, as an expert in-"

It didn't "back down without admitting it was wrong." It said some things that contradicted other things it said. Interpreting this as (nontrivially) backing down is assuming it did it with the motivations of a human, even though dumb flailing that naturally contradicted itself could produce the same result.

I kind of suspect that is already happening.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats