This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I turned 25 recently, So I'll speak a little bit for the Zillenials.
Obvious disclaimer being that my observations are influenced by who I am, and the fact that I was not an adult for the majority of the time period I am going to be talking about. But I will try to recall what I remember seeing and try to fill in the gaps retrospectively.
Things were much better 2000-2014ish. Things started deteriorating around 2018, the same time OLD became the plurality dating platform. But that is confounded by people just socializing less all around, I personally have a hard time "cracking" Gen-Z in that if I were to describe it succinctly, they are not as good at navigating uncomfortable social situations. If things get too uncomfortable they just fall back on their phones or conversationally they seem to put in much less effort and rely on meme speak and cultural references to do the hard talking or them. They have looser standards as well in the sense that ignoring text messages is a faux pas among my older friends but is the norm among the younger ones.
As for getting laid. It's bad. In short, the juice isn't worth the squeeze. Obviously, it's not a binary shift but more of a shift of the distribution. In that getting a 4/10 girl now is the same difficulty as getting a 6/10 girl some years ago (all else constant). The reasons for this are multi-factorial and not all linked to the gender war, some of them are entirely unrelated, but at the end of the day, there are more headwinds to fight against as a dude.
Personally, I can reliably attract a girl up to 8/10. I don't bother with the 5/6's any more because they are EXPONENTIALLY more difficult to attract than previously, the 7s/8s are marginally more difficult but its a smaller delta than the less attractive ones. I think OLD is entirely to blame for this. This specific demographic of girls are the largest users of OLD, they are not attractive enough to have men swooning over them in their social circles, but can get men swooning over them and simping for them in socialmedia/OLD. The attractive ones don't need OLD, they can get attractive men in their social circles.
I am not sure exactly what form I expect it to take, but I think "terminally online" is going to trend toward becoming lower-status in the next decade. The Internet and social networks benefited heavily from the fact that users were initially highly educated -- if sometimes socially awkward -- and generally high-status, but Eternal September (I'm not old enough to recall the 1993 event, but I can remember when Facebook was invite-only) has been an ongoing trend in online communities. At some point soon (probably already) in the lifecycle, avid internet use will start having more negative connotations -- see "touch grass", but more generalized -- and some swinging the opposite direction can be expected.
I think that will be a healthy shift, but I'm not too optimistic about it. It doesn't seem impossible though, especially if high-status people start pushing it. Unfortunately, many of them love to be on-line -- fame seems tied to on-line presence for many these days.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
By "up to" I meant, that's the most I could do, my theoretical max. If all the stars align and whatnot. Also 8 = 95th percentile? What kind of mean and standard deviation are you using lol. I meant the 80th percentile.
I would say I am 70-75th percentile among men, Overall. So if the stars really align, I could get an 80th-percentile woman, by lucking out every step of the way. But my realistic zone is <60-65thth percentile. As I said that range of women has become so difficult that my time is better off pushing my luck with more attractive women, the expected value is the same anyways. I would get much more satisfaction from the company of an attractive woman than a mid one.
Of course, all of this is very anecdotal and circumstantial.
Also, I would say you would be surprised. As I have said elsewhere I am saying things that I hear said across the gamut of men, including some very attractive men. What they will tell YOU and tell each other behind closed doors might vary.
More options
Context Copy link
Of course, this trend continuing apace means that all else hasn't been held constant and many of the would-be 6s are now 4s. To be crass about it, I know I'd rather stay home and jerk off than put in effort to attract a fat girl.
This could be a factor on why on paper moderately (6/10) women are so much more difficult than yesteryear. There are fewer of them.
I don't mean to be crass either, but if a woman is ever slightly overweight, she's out of sight for me. I only pursue thin women.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link