site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 5, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

106
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

They are right about GMOs - they're just not that common, and the genes that are inserted are usually fine. Gene transfer just happens sometimes in evolution. Sticking a wheat disease resistance protein into a potato ... okay, so? what's the issue?

Now, selective breeding is entirely capable of changing crop characteristics on its own. And over the last 150 (and to an extent, tens of thousand) years, agricultural crops have been bred to be entirely different from their historical counterparts - more carbs/sugar and less of anything else, etc, to be more drought resistant, efficient at growing, last longer, look better, etc. This has, imo, made them somewhat less nutritious, and taste less good. Similarly, pesticide regulation, while much better than in the past, still leaves much to be desired - often a pesticide will be banned for having some subtle negative effect, and then a new one will be introduced that totes meets the regulations, then it'll be banned ten decades later, repeat. These are potential issues, GMOS are not. Same if you're a redditor who reads all the 'gmo good antiscience bigot bad' posts - surely some of them will believe it and then argue for it on /r/debate_everything_incesantly?

This doesn't mean there aren't people arguing - but often they're just people who genuinely believe it. If you're an ag scientist developing pesticides or breeding plants, you genuinely think you're making food provision more efficient, are following in the steps of norman borlaug, feeding the planet, etc, and genuinely think that pesticides don't matter much. And maybe they have an incentive to think so, and maybe anyone who cares too much and disagrees quits, but 'paid shills' (which also exist, sometimes) aren't always there. And even if they are ... who wins by pointing them out? Paid shills for your causes exist too, better to actually disprove their arguments, because they probably aren't shills!

You've entirely missed the point. It doesn't matter if GMOs are good or not. Based on the obscurity of the subs I saw this occur in and near identical posts (I remember going and checking similar posts because I initially thought it was the same person) demonstrates pretty well that it was bots/astroturfing. Which was what my post was about.

Second of all, the issue with GMOs are not really about if it's healthy or not. The problem is companies owning DNA and we've already seen ugly fall out from this. It will only get worse. I'm not prepared to advocate a total ban on all patents, as some do, but I think we should at least be able to say that DNA must be public information and cannot be patented.