site banner
ZorbaTHut  2yr ago (text post)   45539 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 5, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

106
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Your heroine version of heroine's journey definitely fits Captain Marvel movie. Now I had some discussions around Galadriel character in latest Rings of Power TV show. Some people defend it as hero's journey:

  • Galadriel had her brother die tragically

  • Galadriel is now raging and obsessed with revenge which is her flaw

  • Galadriel listens to the call for adventure to find Sauron and enact her revenge on him at all costs. And she has success finding various clues about him

  • Galadriel is too hardcore, pushing everybody away from her due to her single-minded focus on revenge, this is her flaw

Now there are some not so subtle hints that the character of Halbrand is the Sauron and he will use her rage to actually enact his plan. Which will cause Galadriel to almost lose everything. Then she gets rid of the flaw, gives up the whole "warrior Guyladriel" shit and becomes protector/enchantress Galadriel from the books. Now I'd actually love this arc, although I would definitely had it described differently. It would be good if in prologue Galadriel was not warrior-princess but more measured wise woman. Only death of her brother driving her to embrace the flaw.

Another potential version of this character arc using your heroine arc:

  • Galadriel is the bestest ever: the wisest, fairest, smartest and best warrior out there. She is pure

  • Galadriel will have her wings clipped in some future episode, maybe being tricked by Halbrand/Sauron and other male characters who will be successful at putting her down.

  • Galadriel will fail to attain as much success as before with this tactic.

  • Galadriel will be in the end forced to use actual force to save hobbits and other main characters. Only to be chastized for it so she returns to her pacific ways

  • Saurons takes advantage and kills loads of people - including weakling men that held her down

  • Galadriel is pissed, picks up her sword and decapitates sauron Arya Stark style in 5 seconds

  • All the men who offered any criticism will bend their knees to her and proclaim her as the true Elven Warlord for the end of times

  • The End

I am actually "looking forward" to seeing where the show moves with her story.

I would agree that "I am only fighting as a warrior because of my rage and I should be doing something else that I have more honest motives for" counts as a flawed heroine. But my confidence that a major American producer these days would have such a plot is close to zero.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats