site banner
ZorbaTHut  2yr ago (text post)   45539 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 5, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

106
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Even from a strategic viewpoint it might not be such a good idea. It might turn away sympathizers and support the narrative of Kiwi Farms as a harassment website.

I was reading comments on slashdot today, the most upmodded comments characterized kiwifarms as an organized terrorism website where nazis coordinate violence against innocent minorities and any response calling out this characterization was buried into the negatives and modded as "flamebait", "trolling", etc.

What kiwifarms actually is and does has precisely zero impact on the narrative. When people can lie and then forcibly silence dissent, reality ceases to matter.

Why do you and those like you bother, then? It does look like there are people who aren't convinced by trumped-up accusations who would be convinced by a real malicious act. Or are you tribally aligned enough to treat any real flags from Kiwifarms's side as false flags?

Why do I even bother? That's a good question, I struggle with it every day, regardless of what you mean by "those like you".

I can't help but come to the realization that it's not about convincing anyone and it never was, if there is no referee and you're the only one playing by the rules, the only thing that's going to happen is that you'll lose every single time and your values will die with your loss anyway. So why the hell do I even bother? Leftists declared a culture war long ago and they've been very much treating is as such, why do I bother pretending that it's not a war and that there are rules and principles involved at all?

regardless of what you mean by "those like you".

Those who also think they're the only ones playing by the rules.

I think there's still plenty of people on the fence or on their side, who don't buy into the narrative, but they can still be turned away, and I think having more people on your side is a help regardless of the situation. I probably wouldn't personally be that bothered by any trolling ops, but it would make me a lot more hesitant to even bring the site up here and defend it, and I couldn't really defend it to my more reasonable friends either in that scenario.

Controlling the narrative is important, but is not the only thing. I can still go to Josh's Telegram and get his side of the story with receipts. (Who knows how long that will last?)

Even if a society of mass-delusion, truth still matters. Probably even more.

Kowtowing hasn't exactly countermanded that narrative, though, has it? Null's played the good little boy and what's it got him? Pretty much the same place as if he hadn't.

The Catholics offer forgiveness for fealty, but the progressives never do. Per the last thread they're even still harrassing Cloudflare.

Null has directly countered one of the main dogmas of the modern internet, that you cannot name the previous identities and criminal records of trans people. Whatever else you call him, he has not "played the good little boy" just because he has not gone nuclear.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats