Well, your view of the Ossetian-Georgian and Abkhaz-Georgian conflicts is slightly simplified.
Those are not "complicated" conflicts, just like Donbass War wasn't complicated. Without Russian involvement, most likely Georgia would have won. Basayev was supported by Russians back then (so you aren't correct that Chechens acted fully independently), but Russian support to Abkhaz separatist (both military and financial) was much more wider in scope. They even supported separatist with their air force.
the region that wanted independence from Georgia.
You do know that Abkhazia back then was 50% Georgian by population?
Was the dude who actively supported Dudayev's separatist government since 1991, hijacked a Russian plane with hostages in 1992, and actively participated in the struggle for the independence of Ichkeria, really a Russian proxy?
but Russian support to Abkhaz separatist
And also Russia evacuated Georgian military from Sukhumi and protect Shevardnadze in Poti. Perhaps the absence of a civil war in Georgia or refusal to use army against regions with separatist sentiments would help more than minor excesses and the supply of weapons in the interests of all parties to the conflict.
just like Donbass War
I understand that if in 2014 Ukrainian government had not used the army against Donbass, Ukraine would have peacefully lost all eastern territories. But I am not ready to justify desire of Ukrainian government to kill because they did not want to lose some of their power.
In a July 2020 interview, the former Russian Federal Security Service chief Sergei Stepashin admitted that Basayev cooperated with military intelligence while fighting against Georgian government in Abkhazia
And also Russia evacuated Georgian military from Sukhumi and protect Shevardnadze in Poti. Perhaps the absence of a civil war in Georgia or refusal to use army against regions with separatist sentiments would help more than minor excesses and the supply of weapons in the interests of all parties to the conflict.
It were not "minor" excesses. Russian assistance to Abkhaz separatists was extensive and well documented.
But I am not ready to justify desire of Ukrainian government to kill because they did not want to lose some of their power.
Then don't. But if the Ukrainian government did not act on military activity by Russian proxies in Donbass, there would had been another Ukrainian government.
This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a
court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to
optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.
The weekly Culture War threads host the most
controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are
appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy;
if in doubt, post!
Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts.
You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.
Why are you called The Motte?
A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently,
it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey",
originally identified by
philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial
but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens
this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for
the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired
propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."
On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.
New post guidelines
If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it.
A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts
such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a
submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).
Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or
significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Those are not "complicated" conflicts, just like Donbass War wasn't complicated. Without Russian involvement, most likely Georgia would have won. Basayev was supported by Russians back then (so you aren't correct that Chechens acted fully independently), but Russian support to Abkhaz separatist (both military and financial) was much more wider in scope. They even supported separatist with their air force.
You do know that Abkhazia back then was 50% Georgian by population?
Was the dude who actively supported Dudayev's separatist government since 1991, hijacked a Russian plane with hostages in 1992, and actively participated in the struggle for the independence of Ichkeria, really a Russian proxy?
And also Russia evacuated Georgian military from Sukhumi and protect Shevardnadze in Poti. Perhaps the absence of a civil war in Georgia or refusal to use army against regions with separatist sentiments would help more than minor excesses and the supply of weapons in the interests of all parties to the conflict.
I understand that if in 2014 Ukrainian government had not used the army against Donbass, Ukraine would have peacefully lost all eastern territories. But I am not ready to justify desire of Ukrainian government to kill because they did not want to lose some of their power.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamil_Basayev#Abkhaz%E2%80%93Georgian_conflict
It were not "minor" excesses. Russian assistance to Abkhaz separatists was extensive and well documented.
Then don't. But if the Ukrainian government did not act on military activity by Russian proxies in Donbass, there would had been another Ukrainian government.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link