Second, proxy wars. Georgia is a perfect example. The creation of a supply and training base for Chechen fighters through the Caucasus mountains is a catastrophic threat that almost nothing can counter
Russian meddling in affairs of its neighbors began long before 2008, or Chechen Wars. So it was really the other way around — fighters from North Caucasus (including Chechens) supported by RF invaded Georgia and fought against government forces, and eventually prevailed. Also they participated in cleansing of ethnic Georgians there. It really shows how disingenuous this argument is
we invade neighboring countries, incite instability there; oh how awful, now they hate us, we must invade them to secure our borders!
It has little to do with the topic of conversation.
Well, your view of the Ossetian-Georgian and Abkhaz-Georgian conflicts is slightly simplified. A country that bloodlessly gains independence from the USSR and a year later decides to use the army against the region that wanted independence from Georgia.
Basayev joined the conflict after the start of the war.
"Incite instability there" happened before him.
And it is rather difficult to call him and his forces supporting him Russian. (Although de jure they were.) But even then, Russia had little control over Chechnya.
Well, your view of the Ossetian-Georgian and Abkhaz-Georgian conflicts is slightly simplified.
Those are not "complicated" conflicts, just like Donbass War wasn't complicated. Without Russian involvement, most likely Georgia would have won. Basayev was supported by Russians back then (so you aren't correct that Chechens acted fully independently), but Russian support to Abkhaz separatist (both military and financial) was much more wider in scope. They even supported separatist with their air force.
the region that wanted independence from Georgia.
You do know that Abkhazia back then was 50% Georgian by population?
Was the dude who actively supported Dudayev's separatist government since 1991, hijacked a Russian plane with hostages in 1992, and actively participated in the struggle for the independence of Ichkeria, really a Russian proxy?
but Russian support to Abkhaz separatist
And also Russia evacuated Georgian military from Sukhumi and protect Shevardnadze in Poti. Perhaps the absence of a civil war in Georgia or refusal to use army against regions with separatist sentiments would help more than minor excesses and the supply of weapons in the interests of all parties to the conflict.
just like Donbass War
I understand that if in 2014 Ukrainian government had not used the army against Donbass, Ukraine would have peacefully lost all eastern territories. But I am not ready to justify desire of Ukrainian government to kill because they did not want to lose some of their power.
In a July 2020 interview, the former Russian Federal Security Service chief Sergei Stepashin admitted that Basayev cooperated with military intelligence while fighting against Georgian government in Abkhazia
And also Russia evacuated Georgian military from Sukhumi and protect Shevardnadze in Poti. Perhaps the absence of a civil war in Georgia or refusal to use army against regions with separatist sentiments would help more than minor excesses and the supply of weapons in the interests of all parties to the conflict.
It were not "minor" excesses. Russian assistance to Abkhaz separatists was extensive and well documented.
But I am not ready to justify desire of Ukrainian government to kill because they did not want to lose some of their power.
Then don't. But if the Ukrainian government did not act on military activity by Russian proxies in Donbass, there would had been another Ukrainian government.
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Notes -
You probably haven't heard about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Abkhazia_(1992–1993)
Russian meddling in affairs of its neighbors began long before 2008, or Chechen Wars. So it was really the other way around — fighters from North Caucasus (including Chechens) supported by RF invaded Georgia and fought against government forces, and eventually prevailed. Also they participated in cleansing of ethnic Georgians there. It really shows how disingenuous this argument is
It has little to do with the topic of conversation.
Well, your view of the Ossetian-Georgian and Abkhaz-Georgian conflicts is slightly simplified. A country that bloodlessly gains independence from the USSR and a year later decides to use the army against the region that wanted independence from Georgia.
Basayev joined the conflict after the start of the war.
"Incite instability there" happened before him.
And it is rather difficult to call him and his forces supporting him Russian. (Although de jure they were.) But even then, Russia had little control over Chechnya.
Those are not "complicated" conflicts, just like Donbass War wasn't complicated. Without Russian involvement, most likely Georgia would have won. Basayev was supported by Russians back then (so you aren't correct that Chechens acted fully independently), but Russian support to Abkhaz separatist (both military and financial) was much more wider in scope. They even supported separatist with their air force.
You do know that Abkhazia back then was 50% Georgian by population?
Was the dude who actively supported Dudayev's separatist government since 1991, hijacked a Russian plane with hostages in 1992, and actively participated in the struggle for the independence of Ichkeria, really a Russian proxy?
And also Russia evacuated Georgian military from Sukhumi and protect Shevardnadze in Poti. Perhaps the absence of a civil war in Georgia or refusal to use army against regions with separatist sentiments would help more than minor excesses and the supply of weapons in the interests of all parties to the conflict.
I understand that if in 2014 Ukrainian government had not used the army against Donbass, Ukraine would have peacefully lost all eastern territories. But I am not ready to justify desire of Ukrainian government to kill because they did not want to lose some of their power.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamil_Basayev#Abkhaz%E2%80%93Georgian_conflict
It were not "minor" excesses. Russian assistance to Abkhaz separatists was extensive and well documented.
Then don't. But if the Ukrainian government did not act on military activity by Russian proxies in Donbass, there would had been another Ukrainian government.
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