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What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.

Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.

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PaperclipPerfector 5d ago (text post) 2205 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for March 30, 2025

Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?

This is your opportunity to ask questions. No question too simple or too silly.

Culture war topics are accepted, and proposals for a better intro post are appreciated.

Jump in the discussion.

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veqq 2d ago

not classical

Indeed, it is "classical". Those are load bearing quotation marks!

listening list

Gladly!

Context

KMC veqq 16hr ago

Credit to my wife for keeping the syllabus in a nicely organized binder.

Impressionism: 1890 - 1920

Claude Debussy - Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun (1894)
Claude Debussy - Reflections in the Water (from Images 1905)
Claude Debussy - The Sunken Cathedral (#10 of Preludes, Book 1; 1909)
Lily Boulanger - In an Infinite Sadness (1916)
Lily Boulanger - Spring Morning (orchestral version; 1918)
Marion Bauer - "Druids" (m.2 of Three Impressions) (1917-1918)
Maurice Ravel - Water Games, or, Fountains (Jeux d'eau) (1901)
Maurice Ravel - Daphnis and Chloe Suite No. 2 (1912)

Four Revolutionary Works: c.1910
Bela Bartok - Allegro Barbaro (1911)
Igor Stravinsky - Le Sacre du Printemps / The Rite of Spring (1913)
Arnold Schoenberg - Pierrot Lunaire / Pierrot in the Moonlight (1912)
Charles Ives - Fourth of July (1913)

Satie and 'Les Six': from 1920
Erik Satie - Gymnopedie No. 1 (1888)
Darius Milhaud - Sonatine for Clarinet and Piano (1927)
Germaine Tailleferre - Outdoor Games (1919)
Francis Poulenc - Festive Holiday (1943)
Francis Poulenc - Gloria (1959)

AURAL EXAM #1 INCLUDES ALL PRECEDING WORKS

Second Viennese School: 1900 - 1945
Anton Webern - Five Pieces for Orchestra (Op. 10; 1913)
Alban Berg - Wozzeck (1921)
Anton Webern - Wie bin ich Froh! / How Happy I Am (op. 25 #1; 1935)
Arnold Schoenberg - Variations for Orchestra (Op. 31; 1928)
Alban Berg - Violin Concerto (1935)

Neo-Classicism: from 1920
Igor Stravinksy - Soldier's Tale (1917)
Igor Stravinksy - Pulcinella Suite (Orchestral version; 1920)
Igor Stravinksy - Symphony of Psalms (1930)
Igor Stravinksy - Sonata for Two Pianos
Bela Bartok - String Quartet #4 (1928)
Bela Bartok - Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta (1936)
Bela Bartok - Concerto for Orchestra (1944)
Paul Hindemith - Nobilissima Visione (1938)

AURAL EXAM 2

Nationalism: 1900-1950
England
Ralph Vaugn Williams - The Lark Ascending (1914)
Ralph Vaughn Williams - Serenade to Music
Gustav Holst - Mars, from The Planets (1914-1917)
Rebecca Clarke - Passacaglia (1943)
Rebecca Clarke - The Aspidistra (1929)
Benjamin Britten - War Requiem (1961)
Benjamin Britten - Peter Grimes (1945)
Benjamin Britten - Serenade for Tenor, Horn, and Strings (1943)
Russia
Sergei Prokofiev - Piano Concerto #3 (1922)
Sergei Prokofiev - Symphony #5 (1944)
Dmitri Shostakovich - Symphony #5 (1937)
Dmitri Shostakovich - String Quartet #8 (1960)
Germany
Carl Orff - Carmina Burana (1936)
Eastern Europe
Bela Bartok - Six Dances in Bulgarian Rhythm from Mikrokosmos Vol. VI (1926)
Zoltan Kodaly - Psalmus Hungaricus (1923)
South America
Heitor Villa-Lobos - Bachiana Brasileira No. 5 (1938)
Alberto Ginastera - Estancia (1941)
Spain
Manuel de Falla - Ritual Fire Dance from Love, the Magician (1915)
Mexico
Carlos Chavez - Sinfonia India (1936)

AURAL EXAM 3

United States - Nationalism Continued
George Gershwin - Rhapsody in Blue (1924)
Samuel Barber - Adagio for Strings (1936)
Samuel Barber - Knoxville: Summer of 1915 (1947)
Aaron Copland - The Cat and the Mouse (c.1920)
Aaron Copland - Fanfare for the Common Man (1942)
Aaron Copland - The World Feels Dusty, from Twelve Poems of Emily Dickinson (1949)
Aaron Copland - Appalachian Spring (1944)
Aaron Copland - Hoe-Down from Rodeo (1942)
Leonard Bernstein - Candide Overture (1956)

The Second Avant-Garde: 1945 - 1975
John Cage - Root of an Unfocus (1944)
Elliot Carter - Woodwind Etude #7 (1950)
Mario Davidovsky - Synchronism No. 1 (1963)
Kryzystof Penderecki - Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima (1960)
George Crumb - Ancient Voices of Children (1970)

Minimalism, Neoromaniticism, and other current trends
Steve Reich - Come Out (1966)
Phillip Glass - Glassworks (1982)
Phillip Glass - Satyagraha (1980)
John Adams - Nixon in China (1987)
John Adams - Lollapalooza (1995)
Henryk Gorecki - Symphony No. 3 (1976)
John Corigliano - Pied Piper Fantasy (1980)
Gwyneth Walker - An American Concerto (1995)
Arvo Part - Fratres (1992)
Arvo Part - Rejoice, O Mother of God (1990)
Kryzystof Penderecki - Lacrimosa (1980)
Vladimir Martynov - Come In! (1988)
Eric Whitacre - When David Heard (1999)

AURAL EXAM 4

I only linked one song, because that's the only one that where I care about the performance. Listen to the Susan Pickett version of An American Concerto. The rest should be easily found through searches.

Going through, some of my favorites include the two John Adams works (I am the wife of Mao Tse-Tung, I speak according to the bo-OK, the bo-OK!), the Martynov I mentioned earlier, Fratres, and Satyagraha. I also quite liked Come Out, but I wouldn't call it classical music at all. It's recorded loops that slowly go out of sync (I let the bruise blood come out to show them, Come out to show them, Come out to show them).

That should keep you going for a while. I can do the 19th century list next, but it's going to be a lot more of what you've already had suggested. Yes, Beethoven 3 and 5 and 9, and Mahler and Wagner.

Context

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.

Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.

New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!

Rules

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