This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Yes, they want to impose costs on the rest of the world which includes the costs of bombing them. That's fine. There is still risk of escalation, but if we want to bomb them in perpetuity and they want to impose costs on the rest of the world in perpetuity so be it. If this is the reality then we live in world that's a little less functional. So be it. It won't be in perpetuity I hope!
I would not describe Houthis as indomitable, although they do have a very high tolerance for eating bombs. The alternatives are to refuse to engage -- which does cost less money with no boats in Red Sea -- or formally accept a new status quo. Or, if you take them at their word, make Israel do something? The world could also reward them with some sort of official designation and hope that buys them off, but I agree with the global order here. You don't get rewarded with shooting and looting civilian ships. Not without some pain or, in this case, the lives of their martyrs.
They are the big dog in Yemen. Woof! They dislike Jews, Sauds, UAE, the US, and they like Iran. Great. These are unpleasant people that would happily lob my head off. Bombing theocratic Islamic fundamentalists, or most any other dedicated piratical states is a reasonable thing to do in response to their piracy. That's a sensible world.
So to sum up, American taxpayers must fund several dozens of fully furnished hospitals or schools worth of munitions to blow up some fanatic who eats one piece of dirt per day with no prospect of stopping said fanatic's friends from doing what they would have done anyway because, uh, something something global order?
If the "global order" is what you care about then the far simpler solution for America would be to crack down on Israel, a country currently invading half of its neighbors and flagrantly defying every post-war international institution which also happens to be entirely dependent on American support to sustain said invasions. We don't need to "take the Houthis at their word" because there have been two ceasefires and in both cases the Houthis ceased fire, something that can't be said about the Israelis.
A sensible world would be one where we don't waste billions of dollars on a strategy we know won't work when we could save billions on one that we know would work
You said no prospect, not me. It is true the US could have considered imposing costs on Israel in response to her and Europe's arms being twisted by America's (mutual) adversaries. I think this would likely encourage further arm twisting and also doesn't seem quite as simple as you say. You sound very certain that America could have easily ended Israel's incursion into Gaza and lifted Israel's decades long naval blockade from Gaza (was also a demand I'm not sure if they dropped that one) and avoided [this] cost. Perhaps American limitations do not end in the Red Sea with the Houthis. The US might be unprepared or unwilling to bomb Israel hard enough to appease requests of a ceasefire. Maybe sanctions of arm sales aren't heavy enough to stop a response in October, November, or December of 2023.
The Houthi's grand humanitarian mission started on the 19th of October, 2023. It has involved hundreds of ballistic missiles and drones being fired at Israel. They have attacked some 100 different merchant vessels. I don't know how many times they've fired at American warships, but probably a few.
Coordination requires understanding. "Don't do a piracy to twist my arm" is a pretty good understanding. "Don't invade other countries" is also an understanding, but at least when Israel invades other countries these days it is mostly its neighbors and doesn't tax Italian and Egyptian shipping. It's unfortunate Houthis are only in a position to play one card, are beholden to the interests of larger nations, etc. We all face limitations.
I'm not really interested in litigating Israeli's war justifications, US obligations to Israel or vice versa, or to which great honor we can bestow on Houthis or Israel. Or America for that matter. It's been done a million times. You can consider any or each as evil and duplicitous as you wish. You'll read smarter people than I. I am but a simple, sensible ""global order"" (double scare quotes, double scary--- if I go triple you're donezo) enjoyer.
I don't think you should trust any nation or, at least, take any nation's stated justifications at face value. Least of all Iran, Israel, or Islamic fundamentalists. It'd be nice if we could trust each other not to shoot at merchant shipping and agree to punish people that defect from this agreement. That's all, really.
Yes, because much like the question of whether the Houthis would obey a ceasefire we already have proof that this is the case. Namely, Witkoff was able to impose a highly unfavorable ceasefire on Netanyahu by doing nothing more than raising his voice. America has practically infinite leverage over Israel and practically none over the Houthis.
Why should Americans care about Italo-Egyptian shipping any more than Israel invading its neighbors? For there to even be a "global order" to defend you actually need to defend it consistently, otherwise it's just "might makes right" with extra steps, and in this case American airpower alone lacks the might to stop the Houthis.
In January of 2025? After the high intensity part of this spat in Gaza was long over. Israel pulled the bulk of its troops out many months prior. Conflicts end. I don't think the US made Israel do anything it didn't want to do in signing a ceasefire in 2025. * Just checking my work January 16th cease fire by al-Houthi. January 17 missiles fired. February 10th the same occurred, 6 days later still engaging US aircraft and vessels. Is there a period where Houthis have actually worked to respect a cease fire I'm missing?
It's unlikely the US could have achieved this in January of 2024 with the same amount (or lack thereof) of pressure. Neither did the US apply any sort of great pressure to achieve it in January of 2025. Israel was very motivated to fight a high intensity conflict. The Houthis were very motivated to cause problems for them. The US was motivated to prevent the Gazan conflict from spilling out into a broader conflict it would be engaged, which is why the US is reacting with most of its strikes in January 2025 onwards, and not January 2024.
If you're saying that US strikes in March 2025 make less sense than they would in March 2024 then yes, I agree. Israel cease fire, problem solved-- or not. Houthi's pulling a lever they shouldn't touch is still not solved. Nobody wants them pulling the lever again. They haven't agreed to this. Israel hasn't agreed to never invade its neighbors or respond to its neighbor's aggression either.
The US did not create any great feats of diplomacy here. Continue selling some armaments to Israel, help their air defense, and hope things didn't get worse. The US neither dissuaded Israeli action, nor dissuaded Houthi action. When it seemed less risky -- or a new administration came in less averse to escalatory risks -- it acted in a belated fashion. Trump decided Something Had to be Done and as is clear I agree. Something should have been done. There should be an understanding. Don't hold ships hostage. Here's your bombs. Sorry they're late.
Knowing your merchant ships won't be boarded by pirates is good for every civilized nation. Not invading neighbors is good, too. I consider the not attacking merchant ships more good for more people and more achievable than I do about Israeli responding to their attack in a Forever War. There's lots of consensus that piracy is bad and the Houthis have been naughty.
Consistently enough for myself to consider it preferential to the alternative. Which is why I advocate for dropping bombs on pirates.
I have no illusion as to failures in consistency. This is a reality of the world we live in when it comes to conflict. If you're upset the world doesn't make complete sense, is fully justified, and orderly then I am sorry. I wish it was. I also wish nation states were like principled rationalists in their humility and honesty. If you would advocate for the US to go in and bring Houthi pirates to the Hague I'd say that sounds dangerous and costly, but orderly. I wouldn't blame you. If you'd say you believe might makes right is the purest and only way to have a world that makes sense, then I guess you'd advocate for America harshly punishing those that make themselves her enemy.
I do not think you are advocating either of these. It sounds like you do not consider Israeli actions justifiable, so the US should either stop them or not stop Houthis or not care about global shipping and stay home. I think you should care a little bit about the security of global shipping, but I understand. It is possible for the US to not be engaged in this conflict. The Suez being crippled is a bigger deal for Europeans as Vice President Vance pointed out. I don't fret too much about it. With time we can grow used to a less functional world without American policing. Patience.
Sending tomahawks to crush a hut is a waste of money. Which is why the US should actually find painful targets that make sense to hit. Maybe they don't exist. I don't know. Low to mid-level agents might be one action. Weapons manufacturing sounds like another common one. If this is not possible, then still send the tomahawks to the hut. Not an infinite number. Maybe less than we have, but do something. I'm not privy to those decisions, but I imagine the US intelligence has gathered a list of suitable targets.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link