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felipec  unbelief  2yr ago (felipec.substack.com)   3600 thread views

2+2 = not what you think

felipec.substack.com

Changing someone's mind is very difficult, that's why I like puzzles most people get wrong: to try to open their mind. Challenging the claim that 2+2 is unequivocally 4 is one of my favorites to get people to reconsider what they think is true with 100% certainty.

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In your opinion, which isn't infallible.

Is that supposed to be a counterargument?

This is not enough.

Yes it is. Listening to your case and engaging with your argument will make me change my mind if your case is convincing enough.

Therefore it's impossible for you to be convinced of anything (about Alice and even less of Bob), and there's no point in me even trying.

No, it's still possible for me to be convinced of true things.

You'e right there's no point trying to convince me of a false statement about math. Instead you should let yourself be convinced by me.

Listening to your case and engaging with your argument will make me change my mind

No it won't.

No, it's still possible for me to be convinced of true things.

Obvious circular reasoning. You believe X is false, and you say it's possible for you to be convinced that X is true if X were true, but X is false, because you believe X is false. Could not be more obvious.

Do you accept the possibility that X may be true? Yes or no.

No it won't.

Now you're making an unsupported assumption about my character instead of an argument. Retract it and apologize.

Obvious circular reasoning. You believe X is false, and you say it's possible for you to be convinced that X is true if X were true, but X is false, because you believe X is false.

No, I proved X is false separately. "X is false, because I believe X is false" is not an argument I've made.

Do you accept the possibility that X may be true? Yes or no.

No. X is a mathematical claim, and it's proven false.

Note that if you make a new argument I will consider the possibility again while analyzing your argument.

Now you're making an unsupported assumption about my character instead of an argument. Retract it and apologize.

You just accepted your mind cannot possibly be changed below.

Do you accept the possibility that X may be true? Yes or no.

No.

That's the end of the road then.

You just accepted your mind cannot possibly be changed below.

I accepted that my mind cannot be changed on a proven statement. This naturally excludes the possibility of a convincing argument. But in the general case, my mind can be changed.

That's the end of the road then.

No, it remains to convince you that X is false.

No, it remains to convince you that X is false.

If there was a person willing to engage in open debate who I had a chance to convince, sadly there's none. There is no point in debate if one side is completely closed off.

I'm willing to engage in open debate with you, and your chance to convince me depends on the correctness of your position. You can't expect to convince anyone if you don't have a point. An open mind does not require me to ignore knowledge I have.*

If you refuse to talk further when you turn out to be wrong, you will never learn anything.

*And you don't see it, but I did some research to verify my position before responding. Do you insist Russell should doubt 1+1=2 after writing PM?

And if you make a new argument, I will do more research to refute it.

I'm willing to engage in open debate with you, and your chance to convince me depends on the correctness of your position.

And who decides the correctness of my position? You. So in order for me to be able to convince you that X may be true, I first have to convince you that X may be true, but X cannot be true, because you have decided that the position that X may be true is not correct, why? Because X cannot be true.

How is this not the definition of circular reasoning?

And who decides the correctness of my position?

The correctness of your position is a matter of fact. No one decides it, we research it. I have done so and found out it's not correct. If I happened to be wrong about that, there would be convincing counterarguments you could make, proving me wrong. But I notice you're not even trying to argue X anymore.

How is this not the definition of circular reasoning?

It's the definition of a strawman. I have not made the circle of reasoning you describe. I have proven that X is not true, separately.

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