We are obligated not to racially select our friends
Why?
If we are obligated not to racially select our friends, we're obligated not to racially select our romantic and sexual partners.
The latter doesn't obviously follow from the former.
Therefore, we're obligated not to racially select our romantic and sexual partners.
Basic modus ponens. Valid but not sound.
If we're obligated not to racially select our friends, romantic, or sexual partners, this is because race is an immutable characteristic.
This is just asserting the whole argument as a premise.
So, we're also obligated not to select our partners based on any other immutable characteristics.
Why? Other immutable characteristics are different from race and may have other factors at play.
Moreover, for all of this, define "immutable". Our entire lifetime is probably computable from birth given sufficient knowledge of the structure of the environment and our personal DNA etc, so can anything really be mutable? You can say that with enough motivation, drive, or choice someone can change aspects of their own lives, but aren't motivation, drive, and the ability to make a choice immutable characteristics? Either you define immutability at some arbitrary level of abstraction from the computable molecular world or this is point is basically useless because everything is immutable.
Therefore, we must be all-inclusive with respect to immutable characteristics in friendship and dating.
Valid, not sound again.
I just find this sort of logical argumentation really stupid. It just asserts things in the premises (with some wordplay and emotional twisting so you don't see it for the naked assertion it is) and then goes through the barest of logical hoops to act like it is a logical argument and not just a statement of opinion. Then if you're a smart, intellectual person you're supposed to sit around and play along with the wrapper game and act like you're surprised to find your interpretation of the world is wrong because someone has simply asserted it so.
My argument:
P1: Humans are animals.
P2: Animals have natural mating and socialization preferences based on various characteristics, immutable or no.
P3: Human society is structured to meet human interests; human actions in society will meet human interests.
C1: Human society is structured to meet human preferences for socialization/romance, based on various immutable characteristics. (from P1, P2, P3)
C2: Human actions will meet human preferences for different immutable characteristics (from C1, P3)
This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a
court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to
optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.
The weekly Culture War threads host the most
controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are
appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy;
if in doubt, post!
Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts.
You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.
Why are you called The Motte?
A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently,
it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey",
originally identified by
philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial
but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens
this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for
the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired
propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."
On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.
New post guidelines
If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it.
A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts
such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a
submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).
Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or
significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Why?
The latter doesn't obviously follow from the former.
Basic modus ponens. Valid but not sound.
This is just asserting the whole argument as a premise.
Why? Other immutable characteristics are different from race and may have other factors at play.
Moreover, for all of this, define "immutable". Our entire lifetime is probably computable from birth given sufficient knowledge of the structure of the environment and our personal DNA etc, so can anything really be mutable? You can say that with enough motivation, drive, or choice someone can change aspects of their own lives, but aren't motivation, drive, and the ability to make a choice immutable characteristics? Either you define immutability at some arbitrary level of abstraction from the computable molecular world or this is point is basically useless because everything is immutable.
Valid, not sound again.
I just find this sort of logical argumentation really stupid. It just asserts things in the premises (with some wordplay and emotional twisting so you don't see it for the naked assertion it is) and then goes through the barest of logical hoops to act like it is a logical argument and not just a statement of opinion. Then if you're a smart, intellectual person you're supposed to sit around and play along with the wrapper game and act like you're surprised to find your interpretation of the world is wrong because someone has simply asserted it so.
My argument:
P1: Humans are animals.
P2: Animals have natural mating and socialization preferences based on various characteristics, immutable or no.
P3: Human society is structured to meet human interests; human actions in society will meet human interests.
C1: Human society is structured to meet human preferences for socialization/romance, based on various immutable characteristics. (from P1, P2, P3)
C2: Human actions will meet human preferences for different immutable characteristics (from C1, P3)
More options
Context Copy link