This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I won't vouch for the accuracy; Grok produced this transcript
[15:36] David: Alright, let’s shift gears a little bit here. One of the big things that came out of the first day of the Trump administration was the executive order on birthright citizenship. This has been a hot topic for a long time, especially in conservative circles. John, you’ve written extensively about this. Can you break down what this executive order does and why you think it’s legally sound?
John: Sure, David. First off, let me say this is something we’ve been pushing for years—decades, really—at the Claremont Institute and elsewhere. The executive order Trump signed on day one basically says that children born in the U.S. to parents who are here illegally, or even on temporary visas, aren’t automatically citizens. It’s directing federal agencies to stop issuing citizenship documents—like passports or Social Security numbers—to those kids unless at least one parent is a citizen or a lawful permanent resident.
Now, the legal basis here hinges on the 14th Amendment, specifically the Citizenship Clause: “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens.” The key phrase is “subject to the jurisdiction thereof.” For over a century, the courts—and most scholars—have read that broadly, saying if you’re born here, you’re a citizen, period. Except for, you know, diplomats’ kids or invading armies. But that’s a misreading of the original intent.
When the 14th Amendment was drafted in 1866, the framers—like Senator Jacob Howard—made it clear they meant it to apply to people who owe full allegiance to the United States. That’s freed slaves, citizens, people permanently domiciled here. Not foreigners who are just passing through or breaking the law to get here. Howard said explicitly it doesn’t include “persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers.” The debate in Congress backs this up— they weren’t trying to hand out citizenship to every kid born on U.S. soil no matter the circumstances.
Viva: Wait, John, hold on a sec. The counterargument I always hear is that Wong Kim Ark case from 1898 settled this. Guy born in San Francisco to Chinese immigrants—legal ones, sure—but the Supreme Court said he’s a citizen. Doesn’t that blow your theory out of the water?
John: Not at all, Viva. Wong Kim Ark is the big cudgel everyone swings, but it’s narrower than people think. Wong’s parents were lawful residents—here legally, running a business, fully subject to U.S. jurisdiction in the political sense. The court said he’s a citizen because his parents weren’t diplomats or some hostile force; they were part of the community. But the case didn’t address illegal immigrants or temporary visitors. The justices even said the phrase “subject to the jurisdiction” means full allegiance—owing no allegiance to another country.
Illegal immigrants, by definition, aren’t fully subject to our jurisdiction—they’re subject to deportation, not the draft, for example. They owe allegiance to their home countries. Same with tourists or visa holders. Wong Kim Ark doesn’t cover them, and the Supreme Court’s never ruled on that specific question. This executive order is teeing it up for them to finally decide.
David: So you’re saying this is a test case, basically? Trump’s throwing it out there to force the courts to weigh in?
John: Exactly. Look, the left’s already suing—18 states filed challenges within days. They’re screaming it’s unconstitutional, but that’s the point: let’s get it to the Supreme Court. The historical record’s on our side. Senator Lyman Trumbull, another key framer, said “subject to the jurisdiction” means “not owing allegiance to anybody else.” That’s not some fringe view—Ed Meese, Reagan’s AG, signed onto a brief I wrote years ago saying the same thing. If the court looks at the original meaning, not the lazy gloss we’ve had since the 20th century, Trump’s order holds up.
Viva: Alright, but practically speaking, John—what’s this mean for people? Like, babies born tomorrow to undocumented parents. They just… don’t get a birth certificate?
John: Not quite. They’ll still get a birth certificate—that’s a state thing, recording the birth. But federal agencies won’t issue citizenship papers. No Social Security number, no passport. States might try to fight it, issue their own stuff, but the feds control naturalization under the Constitution. It’ll create chaos short-term, sure—hospitals, parents, bureaucrats scrambling. But that’s the pressure point to get this resolved. Long-term, it’s about ending the magnet of illegal immigration. People won’t trek here to pop out a kid for an anchor baby if it doesn’t work anymore.
David: Fascinating. And you’re not worried about the optics? I mean, it’s a tough sell—denying citizenship to kids born here. Sounds harsh to a lot of folks.
John: Optics are Trump’s problem, not mine. I’m looking at the law and history. The 14th Amendment wasn’t a blank check for anyone to exploit. It’s been twisted into this universal giveaway, and that’s not what it says. If people don’t like it, amend the Constitution—good luck getting two-thirds of Congress and three-fourths of the states. Until then, this order’s a valid interpretation. Let the courts sort it out.
[18:45] Viva: Alright, John, we could go all day on this—fascinating stuff. Let’s pivot to something else…
More options
Context Copy link