site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  2yr ago (text post)   31477 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 7, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

13
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

That’s very nice for Alex to donate a kidney and only get a NYT Op Ed in return, especially when his livelihood is literally the occupation of working for charities and guiding health policy. In Alex’s case, the right choice was also the one that benefitted him the most financially and socially. Now, I do think that society should be organized such that the right action is the one that benefits us tangibly. And Alex did do a good thing. But most of our moral dilemmas occur in the valleys and shadows where the moral light doesn’t shine. To use a passage from the Gospel,

when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

The “salience” of religion is intended to be so strong that you do works for your God, who is so close as to be a Father. The problem with doing works with an eye on social reinforcement is that when the reinforcement is omitted, the behavior may not occur. This social reward is the “left” hand, in near east tradition the one used for dirty activities, with the right hand kept for pure activities.

[drowning child] claim this "lacks emotional salience"?

If EA were a compendium of moral dilemmas, questions, stories, and imagined experiences, it would not lack emotional salience. And yet it is not such a compendium. One example made does not make the movement based on emotional salience. Perhaps if the drowning child were made into a statue and you attended a service every week to sing songs about the loss of the transcendent drowning child submerged in the waters of chaos, then that would surely count as salient. But, EA is about logical analysis, not pulled heartstrings.

And Alex did do a good thing. But most of our moral dilemmas occur in the valleys and shadows where the moral light doesn’t shine.

The kidney donation was a (not that well argued) example of plausible emotional salience. In terms of 'moral dilemmas', holden/alex/dustin had many ways to get financial and social benefit that didn't involve sending billions of dollars to poor people in other countries (which is financially negative, on the whole). Which, really, does matter a bit more than if you toss a coin into a tithe box 'in the shadows', in the christian/universalist sense. Also, moskovitz could've easily started the Dustin Moskovitz Breast Cancer and Reparations Foundation instead, but didn't, it's not obvious or argued that the 'effectiveness' focus of effective altruism was socially motivated in a way that christianity wasn't. They actually seem rather similar in their attention to the plight of the poor and suffering?

The “salience” of religion is intended to be so strong that you do works for your God, who is so close as to be a Father. The problem with doing works with an eye on social reinforcement is that when the reinforcement is omitted, the behavior may not occur. This social reward is the “left” hand, in near east tradition the one used for dirty activities, with the right hand kept for pure activities

I'm not sure what this means tbh. For the first - EA has a massive group of people that really do work for the benefit of the poor, unfortunate, etc, which fits nicely in christianity. They aren't doing it primarily for social reward, and i'm curious why you claim that. (of course, it's possible to genuinely, not for social reward, still do something mistaken / bad / disgusting / etc)

One example made does not make the movement based on emotional salience

It's (according to scott alexander) the thing that started the movement, not just 'one example'

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats