This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I can grant that, and the original hypothesis still doesn't follow. We're talking about an entire category of people, only some of whom demonstrate lower agency in at least one area. Men are less able to control their drinking and gambling, but we wouldn't consider all men to be children. Its the same in the Pavlovich et.al cases. Some women claim they can't meaningfully consent to sex even when they do. They're insane and a moral hazard. I'm not gonna play in that framework. Whether they like it or not, they're adults.
Again I'm not saying that women should be denied rights or anything. I edited my earlier post to clarify. No need to play in a framework that doesn't exist.
I'm really just asking the question of like - what do we do with this? How can we make it more fair, perhaps by changing the culture, or at least make things make more sense?
We just allow ourselves to know that some women, or perhaps women in general, are more likely to get wishy washy with consent, and do illogical and irrational things in trading sex for status, up to and including asking for take-backs, which should never be granted.
I imagine this is a tale as old as time, and is probably one of the many reasons males took over the entire planets at various points in history.
Yeah I hallucinated arguments about legal rights as yours, conflating metaphors in Kats piece. Regardless, society can accept women as full adults for exactly the same reason as they accept men as full adults. They're both flawed, and fail to demonstrate agency in some domains. Oh well. The more you know...
That's why Kat is trying to hold the line, keep her team in order, and reject the framework of not holding a putative victim somewhat responsible when it was their own agency that got them victimized. Like, sorry Pavlovich, you affirmed consent and called it wonderful.
To be frank, I think that men are, in fact, more logical. However, if I had to guess its a classic case of overlapping curves (with more shared AUC than not), or perhaps more male variability and I don't interact with one end of that bell curve. I have found that women are much more insightful with "social logic" (which is often illogical).
What is needed thoughtful and persuasive think pieces and arguments, as happened when Aziz Ansari went on a famously bad date. We should not be demoting all women to something below adults, but holding them responsible for adulthood. We do them same with men and alcohol and gambling.
I agree with you in general here, liberalism requires us to treat adults as adults. Sadly our society is backsliding towards infantilization via an overdose of compassion.
There has been a long slow slide in this direction for reasons good it bad, at least since the late stages of industrialization in the USA (basically the invention of modern childhood, a change in child roles, even how children were clothed, then came laws, special protections, removal of some rights, etc).
I saw the infantilization coming long ago, when I was a teenager in the 90's. I couldn't wait to be an adult. The freedom, responsibility, and independence were very alluring.
The book The Fourth Turning attempts to forecast the "personality cycles" of a society based on how typical generational cohorts stack up. Its a poli sci book, and heavily influenced Steve Bannon (which is the only reason I read it) but it might give you an idea where all this may be headed.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link