This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Afghanistan certainly has been uncontrollable for centuries. Part of it is that modern Western powers don't want to get involved, due to the history of colonialism, and part of it is that countries like the US don't want another Vietnam so they want to go in fast, dispose of the Bad Guy(s), install a puppet 'modern democratic liberal government' and head back home by Christmas with flags flying and victory parades all neatly done and dusted.
But things in reality don't work that way, and to control Iraq and Afghanistan means going out and fighting a war over an extended period of time that will involve grinding away until you overwhelmingly kill the enemy, then sticking around, again probably for an extended period of time, while you oversee the transition to something that can be considered, if you squint in the twilight, as a modern government. Very probably there is no one Bad Guy or set of Bad Guys that if you take them out, all will be rainbows and roses when the democratic peaceful liberal local alternative government steps up to take over. See Libya after Gaddafi, or the Taliban being driven out in Bush's time and then rolling right back in, in Biden's time.
The natives will, understandably, not like the process. They won't be grateful, or not as grateful as you expect them to be, because who likes strangers coming in and bombing the hell out of their country, even if there's a war going on or Bad Guy(s) in charge? The peaceful liberal alternatives are either carpetbaggers who are only interested in making sure theirs is the Swiss bank account the revenues of the nation end up in, or so Westernised that they are out of touch with the locals and can't effectively govern.
There's no easy, quick, in-and-out victory achieved and Democracy Whiskey Sexy established. And modern societies don't want and don't have the stomach for what it takes to hold power the way it was held back in the old day.
Plus, now the natives can get Maxim guns too, so the balance is not as uneven as it used to be when it comes to "our modern army strolls right over the spear chuckers".
The phrase comes from Hilaire Belloc's poem of 1898 called The Modern Traveller which is scathing about the kind of "wrote a popular account of my adventures in Darkest Africa" adventurers (and also less than modern in references to the natives, reader beware):
More options
Context Copy link