site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

20
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Those with power do as they will, and those without complain about violations of rights and freedoms

This is not the trajectory of world history over recent centuries. You do in fact have more rights and freedoms as an average modern American than as an average citizen of almost any premodern civilisation. All of this apparently gritty cynicism about how it's all about power and rights don't real is just historical denialism.

You do in fact have more rights and freedoms as an average modern American than as an average citizen of almost any premodern civilisation.

I have a different interpretation. Various governments in history claimed to have absolute power over their territories, and the right of life and death their subjects. So the average joe had no rights. In fact, though, these governments barely controlled the outskirts of their capital city. Their grip over the empire amounted to negotiating with local magnates and associations. When I read about farmers and shepherds living in the Pyrenees, it seems like the king in Paris, the pope in Rome, and even the nobles in Bordeaux barely influenced their lives at all.

Obviously, their local nobles and clergy could tyrannize them. But tyrannizing a community that lives right next to you and knows where you sleep is a dangerous business. In practice, serfs worked the lord's strip one day per week and did a pretty lazy job of it. In theory, the church required that everyone attend mass; in practice, only a fraction did.

The early modern period, on the other hand, saw an explosion in state capacity. Monarchs gained standing armies, the right to permanent taxes, bureaucracies, and modern financial instruments. Local nobles and clergy became absentee nobles and clergy, leaving the collection of dues to deputies. This caused turmoil and revolt.

The formal rights we gained in the 19th century are not new things; they are a reaction to attempts by the state to enforce hypothetical claims as actual policy starting in the 16th century or so.

By analogy, do you remember all those states banning gay marriage in the 90s and 00s? Would you say gay rights were increasing or decreasing, then? The formal law was not a sign that gay rights were declining, but that they were growing. Things like "civil rights" are the reverse situation. In theory, we have more freedoms than ever. In practice, institutional control over people's lives is at an unprecedented high.

This is all a re-litigation of Uncle Ted's take, so I'll quote him directly.

It is said that we live in a free society because we have a certain number of constitutionally guaranteed rights. But these are not as important as they seem. The degree of personal freedom that exists in a society is determined more by the economic and technological structure of the society than by its laws or its form of government. Most of the Indian nations of New England were monarchies, and many of the cities of the Italian Renaissance were controlled by dictators. But in reading about these societies one gets the impression that they allowed far more personal freedom than out society does. In part this was because they lacked efficient mechanisms for enforcing the ruler's will: There were no modem, well-organized police forces, no rapid long-distance communications, no surveillance cameras, no dossiers of information about the lives of average citizens. Hence it was relatively easy to evade control.