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Culture War Roundup for the week of October 17, 2022

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a fine of at least 100% of your net worth

When did Alex Jones become the first trillionaire? I'm pretty sure he's not even a billionaire. Including him in the class of "rich people" even is questionable. Even before this judgment it wouldn't surprise me if he had debt up to his elbows that he continuously avoids through sovereign citizen-esque shenanigans (though I don't know how much public transparency there is about his finances to be fair).

I mean I know you're saying "at least", but isn't that still kind of misleading when it ends up being more like "at least 100% of your net worth, but actually more like 6000000%"?

Even then I don't see how anyone who cares about freedom of discourse at all, like a moderator of this previously de facto deplatformed community (though that's debatable given this place's moderation history), can endorse a fine anywhere close to 100% of someone's net worth for hurting people's feelings. (Everyone on this site will be begging on the streets in a day if that becomes a universal standard.)

"Promoting a harassment campaign against people who had their children murdered, all for the sake of selling merchandise" is a weakman against this site's rules too (or it least it would be if it were neutrally moderated; wishing I could put on a red hat right now to give you a cutesy warning over it). It's not like he just picked the random parents of a selection of wholly obscure child murder victims that week and decided to make them his target. He had a heterodox opinion about a highly-politicized event, child murder or not, that many of the parents most criticized chose to actively and enthusiastically participate in the politicization of, and you have absolutely no proof that he did it "all for the sake of selling merchandise". (I've not seen much evidence he encouraged any direct harassment of anyone either.) That is allowed in free societies without going broke. Obviously a free society is not what we have anymore.

After all, children died on 9/11, have died in Ukraine, have died in Syria, etc. Why not fine those with heterodox opinions about those matters billions too? If we allow the parents of muh murdered children to set the standards of discourse, then say goodbye to discourse beyond "thoughts and prayers! <3" entirely.

When did Alex Jones become the first trillionaire? I'm pretty sure he's not even a billionaire.

Whoops, I thought the fine was for a billion :V

Estimates of Alex Jones's worth are all over the place, but the reputable (pre-fine) estimates seem to hang out somewhere between 100m-250m, which, yes, is a big range.

Even then I don't see how anyone who cares about freedom of discourse at all, like a moderator of this previously de facto deplatformed community (though that's debatable given this place's moderation history), can endorse a fine anywhere close to 100% of someone's net worth for hurting people's feelings. (Everyone on this site will be begging on the streets in a day if that becomes a universal standard.)

Because I think that attacking people directly, and importantly, people who never sought to put themselves in the limelight, is a much bigger issue than just "hurting people's feelings".

You make people angry with political claims, fine, whatever; you run a harassment campaign on specific people who just want to be left alone, that's not OK.

You flaunt the judge's requests for years in the process? That's very not OK.

After all, children died on 9/11, have died in Ukraine, have died in Syria, etc. Why not fine those with heterodox opinions about those matters billions too? If we allow the parents of muh murdered children to set the standards of discourse, then say goodbye to discourse beyond "thoughts and prayers! <3" entirely.

I've tried to really hammer this home, but most conspiracy theorists absolutely do not create a narrative which paints grieving families as conspirators. Look at 9/11 truthers as your meter stick; they said that it was an inside job or bush did 9/11. That Jet Fuel didn't melt steel beams. Most did not say 'you're fake, your loved ones never existed.' It's not just 'heterodox opinions bad' it's 'slanderous allegations against specific private citizens bad.'

In my experience, crisis actor theories regarding events with small(ish) numbers of victims are common (particularly in regards to mass shootings) and not just with Alex Jones. With stuff like 9/11 there's just so many victims that these theories become so increasingly implausible (not that they aren't already) that they're not used. I don't think it's a moral barrier.

It's not just 'heterodox opinions bad' it's 'slanderous allegations against specific private citizens bad.'

As, for example, the treatment of Kyle Rittenhouse proves, the second only tends to apply nowadays in the context of the first.

This argument would be a lot stronger if he had actually been ordered to pay that amount. Nothing -- not the verdict, and not the musings of reporters about how much punitive damages might be ordered -- means anything until judgment is actually entered.

My understanding is that while the trillions are only a request at this point, a judgment of nearly a billion has been fully finalized and ordered by a judge already. To me, there's not much of a difference in this case between "essentially impossible, would require him to be like 10x richer than the richest billionaire ever recorded" and "well, maybe if he somehow manages to start the next Amazon or TikTok or something despite being one of the most ostracized men in existence". It's the difference between execution via guillotine and execution via lingchi. Life is still not an option for you in either case.

The point you could make in its favor is that it's not a real punishment, at least not to the degree ordered, because there's no way they're getting that amount of money from him, but that all comes with its own problems.

Your understanding is incorrect. The trial court will not enter judgment until it rules on Jones's motion for new trial and motion to reduce damages. See Ct Code Ch 900, Sec. 52-225.

Judgment on verdict; assessment of damages when judgment rendered other than on verdict. The court shall render judgment on all verdicts of the jury, according to their finding, with costs, unless the verdict is set aside; and in all cases where judgment is rendered otherwise than on a verdict, in favor of the plaintiff, the court shall assess the damages which he shall recover.

And Sec. 52-228b.

Setting aside of verdict in action claiming money damages. No verdict in any civil action involving a claim for money damages may be set aside except on written motion by a party to the action, stating the reasons relied upon in its support, filed and heard after notice to the adverse party according to the rules of the court. No such verdict may be set aside solely on the ground that the damages are excessive unless the prevailing party has been given an opportunity to have the amount of the judgment decreased by so much thereof as the court deems excessive. No such verdict may be set aside solely on the ground that the damages are inadequate until the parties have first been given an opportunity to accept an addition to the verdict of such amount as the court deems reasonable.

Fair then. My mistake. Though I still think in this case that a billion dollar judgment having any degree of finality, such as the degree of being ordered by a judge at all, is insane.

Well, again, there is no judgment, and there is no degree of finality. The entire point of the CT statute I quoted is to prevent excessive jury verdicts from going into effect, so isn't the system designed to obtain exactly the outcome for which you are advocating?

That's not what I'm reading from the statute, and in any case I'm not seeing it in action yet. And even if the final result turns out to be more reasonable, there's still the old problem of "You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride." Nothing in this case indicates a system or society that is "designed to obtain exactly the outcome for which [I am] advocating", which is a general tolerance for a wide range of opinions.

?? You were advocating for a lower verdict, not for none at all. And this entire thread has been about the amount of the verdict.

Anyhow, you think are not seeing it action yet because you aren't familiar with how these things work; judges reduce excessive verdicts every day of the week. But not until a motion is made, argued and heard. It's not going to happen overnight.

You were advocating for a lower verdict, not for none at all.

No? I can prefer a lower verdict to a higher verdict, and none at all to a lower verdict.

Anyhow, you think are not seeing it action yet because you aren't familiar with how these things work; judges reduce excessive verdicts every day of the week.

That's great. Considering how ridiculous the jury's verdict is, the judge has a long way to go here.

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