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ZorbaTHut  2yr ago (text post)   31619 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 17, 2022

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Surely it makes a difference that "some dude" is a person in an official position whose job is, at least in part, to dispense accurate information about this. If anyone did anything wrong here it's them.

And yet, that doesn't absolve you from following the law.

If an undercover cop tells you to commit a crime, it's still a crime.

If a military officer gives an illegal order, it's still an illegal order.

If a bureaucrat gives you the wrong application form, it's still the wrong application form.

Legitimacy doesn't derives from the government authority, nor does government authority alone absolve one from following the legitimate rules of society.

I guess the disagreement is largely about what kind of mens rea requirement should hold here. I don't see why voting illegally should be a strict liability thing like you apparently do, especially if the underlying goal is to prevent *intentional *voter fraud (though such votes should not be counted, if there's a way to enforce that without de-anonymizing them). Doing it with conscious intent, sure.

If claiming ignorance was a shield from all other laws, this might hold water, but without it it's a selective appeal for magic words. If you operate a law that only those who know the law perfectly beforehand can be penalized for, then it's not a law, it's a legal cludgeon for selective application of when 'should' applies to 'should have known.'

Not all of that (indeed, hardly any of it) is strictly true. For example:

If an undercover cop tells you to commit a crime, it's still a crime.

Sometimes. At some point it becomes entrapment; the relevant question is generally whether you showed the intention to commit some similar crime. If the cops merely provided means or informed you of a potential target, enjoy your time with bubba. But if they actively goad you into it, that's a different thing entirely. The case here is somewhere in between, it seems to me.

More generally, there are different levels of mens rea requirements already. This is not some weird form of special pleading, it's already well-established legal doctrine. For example, here's a quick summary I found on a quick Google search:

https://www.tombruno.com/articles/the-four-types-of-mens-rea/

I would argue that none of the four standards listed there are met here. Ignorance of the law isn't an excuse, true, but a total lack of morally culpable intent is.

Legitimacy doesn't derives from the government authority, nor does government authority alone absolve one from following the legitimate rules of society.

We're talking here about a "crime" that only exists because of a(n intentionally confusing) bureaucratic rule, not some well-established "legitimate rule of society".

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