site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 2, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

4
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I don't understand where you draw then line between "advocacy for strong families" versus "Attempting to optimize policies for the societal production of kids".

I'm an individualist. I will personally advocate for the merits of strong families. I have no opposition to institutional protection of the right to have a family or the promulgation of information that highlights the benefits of strong families, but I have a strong opposition to institutions, by policy, subsidizing the development of families or compelling them through inducements into existence. It's a private affair and should remain a private affair.

Once you let institutions start meddling, it creates further legitimacy for them to do so, which not only creates shaky predicates (" whoops, that subsidy was cut, guess now you're homeless with eleven kids"), but the mission itself can invert and suddenly it's not about expanding families, but limiting their size, which in the same realm as Reproductive Policy which has already been legitimized.

I personally view institutions like Samuel saw kings:

“He said, "Here are the policies of the king who will rule over you: He will conscript your sons and put them in his chariot forces and in his cavalry; they will run in front of his chariot. He will appoint for himself leaders of thousands and leaders of fifties, as well as those who plow his ground, reap his harvest, and make his weapons of war and his chariot equipment. He will take your daughters to be ointment makers, cooks, and bakers. He will take your best fields and vineyards and give them to his own servants. He will demand a tenth of your seed and of the produce of your vineyards and give it to his administrators and his servants. He will take your male and female servants, as well as your best cattle and your donkeys, and assign them for his own use. He will demand a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will be his servants. In that day you will cry out because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, but the LORD won't answer you in that day."” (1 Sa 8:11-18, NETfree)

I would not take that offer. I have to live with the institutions that exist (which are in some cases necessary evils) and will take advantage of things like the EITC (as it's my money to begin with), but I'm not going to help create new ones, especially concerning human reproduction.

Augustus tried to boost birth and marriage rates and failed. I'm not optimistic an atomized society filled with perceptions of institutional illegitimacy will have any better luck.

If having kids is so central, then why spend time trying to get market value for your labor, instead of spending that time having more kids?

Isn't that exactly what the Haredi (TFR: 8.56) and Amish (TFR:~8.5) do? And I'm personally not a great example; I'm a stay at home parent that got a late start due to cultural conditioning. I'd love to have as many kids as there are stars, but unfortunately that falls to my descendants to fulfill.

Something bad being common doesn't make it OK - it makes it scarier!

I disagree for the same reason that I have trouble sympathizing with ecological antinatalist sentiments. There have been over thirty documented extinction events, yet life is still here. There have been multiple collapses of human population in recorded history, yet humans are still here. Nothing lasts forever except that which never began. It doesn't mean I want to lean into causing an extinction event or collapse, but in my mind, they're not existential threats.

And both of these things increase the chance that your descendants won't be able to have as many kids as they otherwise would.

In a clade of generations, sure. But if they survive the bottleneck, well, it's free real estate. Those that survived mass culling events like the Black Death or the Great Jewish Revolt left an inordinate genetic impression on future generations. That my descendants might be a different hue or a lower IQ doesn't really matter to me, as selection pressures are dynamic and if worthwhile will emerge again.

I don't identify as a mammal, European Early Farmer, Churusci, Gothic, Saxon, or what have you, while those are certainly facts that could be said about my heritage.

The only constant between me and the far distant soup that spawned life is that still alive.

If my descendants aren't able to cope with what the future holds and face a reproductive dead end, well, that's how life works. I'll do what I can to equip my kids with the wisdom necessary for understanding the rules of the game and to play it accordingly.