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I don't understand why you think the separation is nonsense. Social norms about the sexes do exist, and they are clearly separate from sex, since unlike sex, they differ from society to society and, within a given society, they change over time. So, we have given it a name. Moreover, there are always people who do not conform to current social norms (a male nurse in 1950? Crazy!)
i thinkI'd say a couple things to that. Gender roles may be real, but they can be somewhat arbitrary, and tend to be based on sex anyhow. But I think the very arbitraryness of gender roles in different places and times makes me utterly confused about why one's gender identity should matter to me at all, more than, going with the genre comparison, whether you like country music or rock or blues. it's something to know about you, I guess, but there's no need to give it any more attention than that.
On the other hand, sex matters a lot. It matters biologically, medically, it has for most of history mattered legally as well. Rights have historically been granted or denied on the basis of sex. Similarly, from the concept of sex derives the concept of sexual orientation. Most people's orientation is towards the opposite sex, but there are some people whose sexual orientation is towards those of the same sex or towards both sexes. Genderists will thus say that a lesbian is someone who is attracted to people who "identify as female." Meanwhile, lesbians say no, they are attracted to people of the female sex only, and are not attracted to men no matter how men self-identify. And then they get accused of being transphobic by people who want to erase the concept of sex and replace it with this concept of gender.
I can't remember who, but someone raised an imo very effective argument against this elevation of gender identity by pointing out that some of the absurd claims made (i.e. you need some medical doctor or unassailable subjective insight to determine who a woman is) lead to a situation where you theoretically can't define women in such a way that it captures American, Saudi and Japanese women at the same time.
Except that nobody - even the most "woke" - acts like this is the case.
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Pretty sure there were male "nurses" (caregivers to sick people) all throughout history. There are lots of tasks involved that need physical strength, carrying and lifting patients, restraining aggressive ones, etc.
That is why I referred specifically to 1950, and implicitly to the
USA, when the gender norms deemed nursing to be women's work, and why I said that gender norms often change over time.
1950s USA is this magical reference point for some reason, that justifies introducing a whole new concept called "gender". Actually that's not even surprising, I just wrote a comment on how we are stuck in the 60s on repeat, so yeah I guess comparing ourselves to one decade ago make sense.
So, had I said 1940, instead, when AKAIK the norms were the same, you would agree that gender norms can change? I am really not sure what your position on that is, and of course, that is my entire point. You are picking on the nit that is my admittedly somewhat snarky example, but are not addressing the underlying point.
Just because men and women play different roles, wear different clothes etc at different historical times and technological circumstances doesn't somehow negate that they are men and women. We don't need a new concept (gender) to be able to say that women had lives and jobs like this before but like that after.
Also if gender is merely the difference between the roles in different cultures or times, are transgender people adopting some roles from a different era than today? I thought they transition from male to female etc. and not from 21st century to, I don't know, 8th century.
Come on. I didn’t say that they aren't men and women. I said that norms have changed. My entire point has been that sex and gender mean different things, so how can you believe that I said that?
I don't get the relevance of the transgender question. What transgender people do or feel is not really relevant to what the term "gender" means, nor with whether gender norms are constant or instead change over time and space.
"Gender roles have varied across time and culture" is the motte, "who is male or female has so far been entirely socially constructed to uphold an oppressive patriarchy, but from now on it should actually be decided by everyone themselves based on their inner feelings and this decision is unquestionable" is the bailey.
Perhaps for some people, but not for me, because I have neither said that nor believe it.
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