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They weren't arguing with each other, but he showed it to another person in order to back up his claim. Perhaps I should have used better words such as "underscore his argument." It is still him almost word-for-word saying "Don't tell anyone, but I am showing you this document that I could have declassified as President." Which would make no sense to say unless you know you didn't declassify something.
Speaking of misusing words there is no contradiction here. The argument is that Trump is showing a classified document because he never took any action to declassify it, and he knows that. He had that power when he was in office, but it's too late for him to use it. President Trump could have ordered a drone strike. Ex-President Trump cannot. Likewise, President Trump could have shared classified information but ex-President Trump cannot.
Your argument is that taking documents home when leaving office is declassifying documents because he doesn't have to tell anybody to declassify something. That argument makes no sense because the government is not a hive mind. Him thinking about it does not psychically transmit that information to anyone else. By that logic if a low-level federal contractor had taken copies of those documents home at the same time and revealed any of them, he would not be guilty because Trump declassified them, even though he had literally no way of knowing that.
In addition, Trump's actions make no sense within this context. Here's a timeline. Trump was told to return documents in May 2021. Prior recording is from fall 2021. Trump hands over 15 boxes Jan 2022. Investigation begins March 2022. In May 2022 Trump is subpoena'd. Trump reportedly tries to suggest telling them he's doesn't have any more classified documents. Nauta is accused of moving boxes around. In June 2022 they collect more documents. On August 2022 they raid and find more documents.
Under your proposed explanation, where in this 1.5 year process does Trump refuse to give anything back and argue he doesn't have to give back documents that aren't classified in the first place?
Obama's executive order remained in effect because executive orders are not automatically null when a President leaves, and President Trump did not null them. The argument is this.
The information was classified.
There are conditions necessary to declassify information, and none of them were fulfilled.
Trump did not waive any of those conditions.
In other words, it was a violation because what Trump did is not described in here, and President Trump did not null the order itself or declare this information any exception to it.
The closest is this:
President Trump can share information, but that doesn't declassify it. That just makes a single person privy to confidential information without being punished for it (though if they share that information they may be punished for it). President Trump could have ordered the information to be declassified, but him supposedly thinking about it does not do that. He can skip the process, but he has to actually say he's skipping the process. He cannot claim as a former President that he thought about it doing it in 2020 and that is the same as doing so, any more than he can pardon someone today by claiming he was thinking about it before he left office.
Executive 13526 does not establish a procedural requirement for the President to follow any particular process to declassify information. Therefore, there is nothing for Trump to null.
Which is unsurprising for you to not have caught on to, as you seem to have gone straight to Section 1.6, Identification and Markings, and so skipped or never got to various relevant sections.
These includes-
Sec. 1.3. Classification Authority.
(a) The authority to classify information originally may be exercised only by:
(1) the President and the Vice President;
(2) agency heads and officials designated by the President; and
(3) United States Government officials delegated this authority pursuant to paragraph (c) of this section.
...establishing a categorical difference in offices who can inherently originally classify and delegated classification authorities, of which later sections apply different standards to...
and
Sec. 1.7. Classification Prohibitions and Limitations.
(a) In no case shall information be classified, continue to be maintained as classified, or fail to be declassified in order to: (4) prevent or delay the release of information that does not require protection in the interest of the national security.
...which is to say prevent or delay a President's decision to declassify, who as the ultimate classification authority gets to decide what does not require protection in the interest of the national security (other than atomic secrets)...
and
Sec. 1.7. Classification Prohibitions and Limitations.
(c) Information may not be reclassified after declassification and release to the public under proper authority unless:
...which is to say there are a number of caveats which are not even alleged to have been met by the prosecution, even without the executive superiority of a Presidential declassification...
and
Secs 1.8 and 1.9, Classification Challenges and Fundamental Classification Guidance Review ...which focus their guidance to Agency Heads and below, which a President is not....
and
PART 3 -- DECLASSIFICATION AND DOWNGRADING ...which in general establishes the President as an appeal authority to for standards ascribed to agency heads and below, but not the President...
and
Sec. 3.1. Authority for Declassification.
(b) Information shall be declassified or downgraded by: (1) the official who authorized the original classification, if that official is still serving in the same position and has original classification authority; ... (3) a supervisory official of either the originator or his or her successor in function, if the supervisory official has original classification authority; or
...which, per Sec. 1.3 establishing that the President has original classification authority and authorized the original classification via delegated original classification authority and is the supervisory official of all executive branch agencies...
and
PART 4 -- SAFEGUARDING Sec. 4.1. General Restrictions on Access.
(i.) (2) *Classified information originating in one agency may be disseminated by any other agency * to which it has been made available to a foreign government in accordance with statute, this order, directives implementing this order, direction of the President, or with the consent of the originating agency. For the purposes of this section, "foreign government" includes any element of a foreign government, or an international organization of governments, or any element thereof.
...demonstrating that Presidential direction has its unique force without process requirement as well as authority to disseminate to any other agency (which includes the office of the White House)...
and
Sec. 4.3. Special Access Programs.
(a) Establishment of special access programs. Unless otherwise authorized by the President, only the Secretaries of State, Defense, Energy, and Homeland Security, the Attorney General, and the Director of National Intelligence, or the principal deputy of each, may create a special access program.
...demonstrating again that Presidential direction has its unique force without process requirement in the handling of classified information...
and, of course, definition (gg)
(gg) "Original classification authority" means an individual authorized in writing, either by the President, the Vice President, or by agency heads or other officials designated by the President, to classify information in the first instance
...which is to say, all EO 13526 requirements placed on Original Classification Authorities do not apply to the President, the Vice President, or by agency heads or other officials designated by the President, because for the purpose of policy those people (who have original classification authority per Sec. 1.3) are not, themselves, Original Classification Authorities (proper noun).
There are more, but they'd require more characterization and this review of American regulatory requirements has gone long enough.
Plus, it's all redundant, since none of them actually, you know, identify a required process for the President.
Since you have failed to identify a specific process the President must follow to declassify information, feel free to return when you find one.
Yes, the Executive Order applies to the document itself, and to the agencies following that.
The documents were at some point classified. Do we agree at that point? Therefore something has to change to make them not classified. The President has 2 special powers:
The power to share classified material without punishment, which does not make it declassified.
The power to declassify without following the process.
I think we agree on both of these points. Do we not?
My argument from there is that, there is no process the President must follow to declassify. He can do almost literally anything to declassify it, but there is one thing that does not fall under "literally anything," and that is nothing. Nothing meaning "Not Thing," as in he did not do the thing. Therefore, they retain their existing status of classified. "Thinking about it" is also nothing, because it is still classified as far as the entire rest of the government knows. Even something as simple as letting anyone who could communicate the decision know would probably work.
I will repeat my earlier questions:
If these documents were not classified at all, then why didn't Trump at any point between May 2021 and August 2022 say that he had no intentions of returning the documents because he doesn't have to? And why did he say in fall 2021 that he didn't declassify them?
As expected, you still haven't identified a specific process the President is required to do that Trump failed to follow. Feel free to come back when you do.
Because he doesn't have to follow a process. He just has to actually do it. There is no such thing as a Presidential power that is exercised only by thinking about it.
Feel free to come back with an explanation for why Trump tried to hide the documents for a year and a half when he apparently had nothing to hide at all.
You continue to not identify a process Trump failed to follow to prove he actually did it, which by definition would be a required process in this context, as well as continue to not identify where this validation requirement comes from.
"He doesn't have to follow a process to do something, he just has do actually do [a process that demonstrates he did the thing]" is not the informed defense you think it is, particularly when this is the basis of the accusation against the prosecution flipping the burden of proof as a prerequisit of assuming guilt and requiring Trump to prove otherwise.
Which you have not identified a binding requirement requiring the President to do.
Feel free to come back when you identify a required process.
Your argument is that the only "process" that Trump needs to follow to declassify is to decide, entirely in his own head, that something is declassified. In said recording, he admits he never did that. Therefore, even by your own lowest-of-the-low bars, he did not do that. And all of his actions over one and a half years regarding the return of said documents contradict the actions of someone who believes he declassified it. Literally 0 people involved in this case agree that it was done, including the person you argue is the only person that matters. Let's start by stating my argument is simply that the "process" is at least 1 person involved in Trump's government can make a subjective determination that it was done. Let's call that the law of basic logic. If not, the document remains classified.
You continue to completely ignore the question of why Trump went through all of this when by your own argument he could have saved himself a lot of time and energy because you know your "strongest" argument is to insist that something that doesn't exist but isn't required is in fact required.
Looks like you still haven't found a declassification process the President needs to go through that Trump failed to go through. Feel free to come back when you do.
A better way of asking something you have failed to answer - under your definition, is intent required in order to declassify something? In other words, if it could be proven that Trump's frame of mind when taking the documents home was not to declassify them, but to hoard secret information, would that establish that the documents were not declassified? Or is it literally impossible to him to steal documents for use outside of his Presidential term, even if he tried?
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