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Culture War Roundup for the week of September 16, 2024

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Ukraine... gets its independence and neutrality guaranteed by ... Russia

Ukraine already has that. What else you got?

I am duty bound to inform you that you are allowed to read the rest of the sentence, or indeed, the rest of the post.

And yet, duty bound or not you didn't rebut the point of what had already failed.

*The accords you claim already existed were non-viable due to Russian demands even before the Bucha Massacre was recognized, and conditional on Russian demands for Ukrainian disarmament to levels below what Ukraine has already since lost in the war- i.e. an inability to defend itself- while demanding a Russian veto on external security assistance by non-Russian providers- i.e. that other actors like the EU would not be able to act in a crisis.

*The end of sanctions on Russia will not occur because the sanctions are themselves a mechanism of European transition away from Russian energy imports on grounds of national security following Russia's attempted energy blackmail.

*Russia has no credibility has a military guarantor of Ukraine's security as it is currently on the third continuation war of violating Ukraine's neutrality.

*Russia has already rejected the applicability of neutral administration of the Russophone oblasts both in the form of annexation and in its previous positions during Minsk agreements positions of previous agreed upon neutral parties.

*As there is no reason to believe there would turnover of territory, by consequence the destination of most reconstruction aid would be in the areas most heavily damaged- the areas Russia holds- amounting to a subsidy / reimbursement to Russia of the costs of Russian conquest. If there was no cross-control spending, the provision would have no role as both powers would simply spend on reconstruction of their own areas regardless.

*Russia's initial invasion of Ukraine was already conducted when Ukraine was on a much less involved level of EU association despite existing treaties.

Your terms of peace are non-credible because they rest on provisions that Russia has already broken or insisted on poison pill sub-provisions that lead to this conflict.

Peace requires concessions on both sides, and I think a European guarantee is enough of a deterrent.

Both sides' declared conditions are mutually exclusive, I tried to cleave from both of them somewhat fairly.

there is no reason to believe there would turnover of territory

Formal borders sans Crimea restored and an end to military occupation seems like it goes without saying, formal schedules for returning Ukraine to normal administration are left as exercise to the reader.

If Putin is interested in clay instead of all of his declared war goals, peace is a non starter, but I believe him when he says his concerns are related to security of Russia and Russians more than rote imperialism.

Peace requires concessions on both sides,

So far your concessions are largely unilateral in light of how Russia has approached or poison-pilled various equivalent standards before.

and I think a European guarantee is enough of a deterrent.

A peace treaty doesn't depend on what you think is enough of a deterrent, it depends on what others think is enough of a deterrent. The typical-minding of other actors perspectives and interests to your own is why your proposals will not be credible to the actors that matter.

Both sides' declared conditions are mutually exclusive, I tried to cleave from both of them somewhat fairly.

Are you trying for fairness, or functionality?

If you are trying for functionality, your sense of fairness has neglected the functional failures that already occurred as a result of equivalent terms in the past, failures which you are expecting previous victims of to subscribe to again.

Formal borders sans Crimea restored and an end to military occupation seems like it goes without saying,

It not only requires saying, but categorial opposition to this has been the starting position for the Russian position for over two years now, with no provided reason for why they would drop the position and un-annex regions now given that a cease fire or frozen conflict- a BATNA to a treaty- would let them retain territory well beyond formal borders sans Crimea.

formal schedules for returning Ukraine to normal administration are left as exercise to the reader.

And as one of the readers is the Russians, this turns any formal schedule into a frozen conflict scenario. Which is the same scenario that led to the 2022 invasion as Russia deemed a frozen conflict with no viable path to NATO membership insufficient to meet its desires vis-a-vis another continuation war.

If Putin is interested in clay instead of all of his declared war goals, peace is a non starter, but I believe him when he says his concerns are related to security of Russia and Russians more than rote imperialism.

Putin is interested in the clay because many of his claimed war goals were false or lost already.

The Russophone regional populations were not categorically endangered until Russia created and enforced a separatist conflict with external interventions, NATO expansion was accelerated instead of countered, the Ukrainians were not a false nation seeking Russian liberation, and the Ukrainian government was never a Nazi regime.

The clay is what allows Putin to justify to himself, his partisan supporters, and his historian that he 'won' in some meaningful sense.

Do Russian diplomats really read this forum? News to me.

In any case your model of the motivations of the belligerents is not the same as mine so I don't really think we can reconcile the reasoning for any of this.

I will say however that taking the current declared terms from both sides as immutable gospel as you do here is absurd. Diplomacy never works like that.

Do Russian diplomats really read this forum? News to me.

Do Russian diplomats need to read this forum for your proposals to be unworkable because of poor modeling of the interests and concerns of participants?

In any case your model of the motivations of the belligerents is not the same as mine so I don't really think we can reconcile the reasoning for any of this.

Sure we can. We can work to justify the models based on key actor behavior, contexts that the proposed models will work within, and past iterations.

For example, you made a concession that if Putin is interested in clay instead of all his declared war goals, then peace is a non-starter. I noted that it is impossible for Putin to achieve all of his declared war goals, and that in lieu of those he has significant interest in the clay in order to declare victory. You have not disputed these points on all of Putin's war goals. If Putin has many interests in the conflicts, and many/most have fallen away, then the reason to continue the conflict remains the rest- which includes the clay.

This is a synthesis, not a refutation of your model, and thus allows the conversation to reach your own conclusion. Putin cares about the clay, and thus peace is hopeless.

From this point, we can discuss what that means for reasonable peace talks (which have a purpose even when an adversary has no interest in fulfilling them), assumptions of terms they can be approached with, and so on.

I will say however that taking the current declared terms from both sides as immutable gospel as you do here is absurd. Diplomacy never works like that.

Fortunately I am not arguing on the immutable gospel of declared terms, but rather past iterations, interests, and incentives... which is how diplomacy routinely works, absurd as that may seem to you.

Moreover, you seem to be trying for a flawed reasoning of what is or is not considered subject for negotiation. Just because initial declared terms are 'never' final terms doesn't mean all parts of initial terms are subject to concession. Plenty of terms are not subject to trading way short of total capitulation- which is not the context Russia is faced with in the timeframe being alluded to. As such, the basis by which currently held Russian territory would be traded away with requires justification rather than going without saying, particular in light of past Russian policies in regards to frozen conflicts and relevant historical analogs to broad-front indefinite cease fires.

I find my question unchanged.

Are you under the impression that the EU is or ever has been guaranteeing the independence of Ukraine militarily?

They get transitive Article 5 NATO protection under my plan, they just don't get to trigger it themselves or host NATO bases and are bound to formal neutrality as part of the deal.

No, just that such a guarantee isn't worth very much.

What the hell more do you want than dual GP protection? Nuclear weapons?

Acknowledgement of reality. A peace deal now without hard guarantees is just a pause, a frozen conflict so more can be taken in the future.

I don't think I can even imagine what you consider a hard guarantee if that doesn't qualify.

American treaty obligations. Tripwire forces. Things that represent an actual threat to Russian attempts to use military force to restart the conflict.

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