site banner
PaperclipPerfector  2mo ago (text post)   28510 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 2, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

5
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

One that really cracked me up that I saw in a few articles today was how they reminded everyone that the this is the first time a "far-right" party has won an election since ww2 and also it's on the 85th anniversary of Nazi Germany invading Poland.

They then go on to inform us of the unspeakable far right policies of this party which warrant being compared to a group that waged war across Europe.

brace yourselves, might want to sit down for how evil this one is.

They're anti-war!

We really don't hate journalists near as much as we should, we need to invent people that don't spend 8 hours sleeping so they can hate journalists 24 hours a day or something.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ukraine-skeptic-parties-win-big-162619480.html?guccounter=1

The continued rise of Alternative for Germany (AfD) entered a new chapter on Sept. 1, when the controversial far-right party came first in Thuringia's state election.

AfD won around 33% of the vote in Thuringia, a state of 2 million people in Germany's east. The results mark the first time a far-right party won a state election in Germany since the Second World War - 85 years to the day that Nazi Germany invaded Poland.

and their policy

"Anti-war, anti-Ukraine"

"In line with the rest of the AfD, Hocke has repeatedly urged for dialogue with Moscow and is against sending military aid to Ukraine"

"In May 2023, Chrupalla and party founder Alexander Gauland attended a reception at the Russian embassy, celebrating Russia's 'Victory Day.' Chrupalla claimed he attended the event because 'dialogue should not be allowed to break down in times of crisis.'"

"AfD's campaign in Thuringia included the slogan 'diplomacy instead of weapons,' referring to Germany's position as the world's second-largest supplier of military aid to Ukraine after the U.S."

"'Friends, we as Germans, we as Thuringians, we as voters say – no more war,' he said."

To be fair, they are less pacifist and more pro-Putin. I am sure that if someone invaded a part of Germany, they would sing a different tune.

I agree with you though that their objection to aid for Ukraine -- which they share with the new BSW -- is not something which is beyond the pale.

To me, this AP article takes the cake.

Headline: A far-right German party’s win has some fearing for the future. Others worry of a return to the past.

Synopsis: A lesbian couple in Berlin is worried about the rise of the AfD.

They’re concerned that a gay couple and their child might not be safe in the future if parties like Alternative for Germany, or AfD, gain more power in the formerly communist and less prosperous eastern states.

Germany’s domestic intelligence has deemed both the Saxon and Thuringian branches of the AfD to be “proven right-wing extremist” groups. The leader in Thuringia has even been convicted of using Nazi slogans. Even more ominous, this election was held on the 85th anniversary of the invasion of Poland, which makes the AfD’s win somehow even more damning. One young father is trying to figure out how to explain it to his three- and six-year-old kids:

“We don’t talk much about politics so far. He’s more into ‘Paw Patrol,’” Meister said. “It’s hard to explain. How is it that people are so proud to vote for a party that is so bad for everyone?”

Now we get to the good stuff:

Older Germans who lived through the Nazi reign of terror are frightened. Many believed their country had developed an immunity to nationalism and assertions of racial superiority after confronting the horrors of its past through education and laws to outlaw persecution.

But Holocaust survivor Charlotte Knobloch, president of the Jewish Community of Munich and Upper Bavaria, cautioned against labeling AfD’s successes as an aberration.

“Nobody should now speak of ‘protest’ or look for other excuses,” Knobloch said in a statement. “The numerous voters made their decision consciously, many wanted to make the extremists on the fringes responsible.”

Knobloch was 6 years old when she saw the synagogues of Munich burning and watched helplessly as two Nazi officers marched away a beloved friend of her father on Nov. 9, 1938, or Kristallnacht — the “Night of Broken Glass” — when Nazis terrorized Jews throughout Germany and Austria.

Gudrun Pfeifer and Ursula Klute, two retirees from the northwestern city of Osnabrueck who are visiting Berlin this week, said Sunday’s vote also brought back grim memories from their early childhood days during and after World War II.

“I know what this can all lead to,” Pfeifer, 83, said Monday as her voice broke, recalling how her family was separated during the last months of the war and beyond. She was stranded in Berlin for more than a year.

“The city was in ruins, we were all starving. I was very ill — my sister thought I was going to die,” Pfeifer added.

Unfortunately, young people are ever so slightly more likely to vote for the AfD than the population overall, which obviously spells disaster for the future. The article closes with this ominous warning:

Klute, 78, also said she was distressed by AfD’s successes among the younger population.

“People always forget the lessons from history,” she said.

The only thing this article is missing (other than, you know, any discussion of the AfD’s actual policy proposals) is a paragraph noting that Saxony and Thuringia were among the earliest states to support the Nazi party electorally back in 1928. Perhaps the authors were simply unaware, or perhaps they ran out of room with their other guilt-by-association quotations.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats