This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Right, but just because someone looks younger than they really are, that doesn't mean that in some ineffable spiritual sense they are younger than their actual physical age. In my experience, most people who undergo extensive cosmetic surgery to try to reverse the effects of aging (the Bogdanoffs, Madonna, Simon Cowell etc.) are widely ridiculed for being in denial about the plain reality of their own bodies. Truth be told, I do think it's rather sad and pathetic seeing someone who refuses to simply accept the fact that they've become older and don't look the same way they used to.
I notice that you completely side-stepped the transracial analogy even though in principle exactly the same arguments should apply.
If a woman of average height started wearing high heels and began claiming to have a "height identity" distinct from her physical height (and complaining that she wasn't being offered basketball scholarships or modelling contracts), I think just about everyone would react with bafflement at best and derision at worst.
I'm not saying you should feel bad about anything. You do you. If it makes you happy to dress in conventionally feminine clothes and have people mistakenly assume that you have a set of reproductive organs which you do not in fact possess, go for it, more power to you. I just reject the claim that, because people sometimes incorrectly classify you into a category of which you are not strictly a member, that therefore means that you really are a member of that category in some kind of spiritual intangible sense. Such a framing would imply that my "ethnic identity" is Finnish in some sense, despite the fact that I have no Finnish ancestry, am not a Finnish citizen, don't speak Finnish or have any connection with the culture, don't know any Finnish people and have never set foot in the country. Like "I'm not a female person, but I look female" is a perfectly coherent statement; likewise "I'm not Finnish but I look like I could be" or "I'm 35 but I look like I'm 25". But statements like "I'm not Finnish, but I have a Finnish ethnic identity" or "I'm 35, but I have a 25-year-old age identity" would widely be derided as incoherent - and I'm arguing the same is true of "I'm not female but I have a female gender identity".
Many trans activists (not necessarily including you, I don't know where you stand on this issue) get very irate and defensive when people make plainly true assertions like "it is impossible for a person to change their sex", "only female people can menstruate or be impregnated" or "trans women are at no less risk of prostate cancer than cis men". My point is, if it's mean to remind people of true facts associated with their anatomical sex instead of constantly affirming their stated "gender identity" (even if the reason you're bringing up these facts is in their own self-interest), then by the same token it should be seen as cruel to remind people about true facts associated with their physical age (such as propensity to various cancers) rather than constantly affirming their "age identity" (i.e. pretending that they really are the age they're attempting to pass themselves off as).
That seems like a pretty dumb mistake to make, though? You know trans people exist. There's plenty of people in the "female gender, but no uterus" category. So why would you keep assuming that just because I have a female presentation, I have a uterus?
Because 99% of people who look female do, in fact, have a uterus, and I'm extremely confident that this is a "mistake" you make all the time when you're out and about. When you pass a woman in the street, you don't think to yourself "oh, there's a person who bears a resemblance to my personal expectation of what a typical female person looks like. Armed with this knowledge, I cannot possibly make any additional inferences or educated guesses about her anatomy or life experience." No - you clock her as female and assume that she is a typical member of that set, rather than fixating on the tiny minority of women without uteruses.
I'd consider it pretty weird to spend any amount of time thinking about whether a stranger has a uterus or not. I've gone this entire conversation without once wondering whether you have a uterus or not. Whether or not you have a uterus is entirely irrelevant to my life.
Whether I have a uterus has zero impact on your life, too - so why are you spending so much time thinking about it?
And, given how often I meet people who look female and don't, in fact, have a uterus, I maintain some basic epistemological grace and acknowledge the uncertainty - especially since in my social circle, it's definitely less than 99%.
I think a lot of cis women would disagree with you on this score. From speaking to my loved ones who are cis women, I understand that they are generally aware of how vulnerable they are to being assaulted (particularly sexually assaulted) and are constantly carrying out risk calculations regarding the people in their immediate vicinity. Male people (not "people who are treated as men" or "people who strangers address as 'sir'" or "people who experience misandrist sexism" - male people) are vastly more likely to assault or rape a female person than female people are, and are overwhelmingly stronger than female people. Thus, to a cis woman, "is the person walking twenty paces behind me male or female?" is a very pertinent question indeed.
"Well yeah because men are socialised to be violent and trans men are just as likely to-" no, I'm gonna stop you right there, it's bollocks. Even males who have undergone SRS retain the offending patterns of their natal sex and are 6 times more likely than cis women to be convicted of a crime (and 18 times more likely to be convicted of a violent crime). This rather succinctly demonstrates how vapid a theory gender ideology is - if trans women are exactly as likely to assault a stranger as cis men, and trans men are exactly as likely to assault a stranger as cis women, knowing a stranger's "gender identity" provides a woman walking down the street with zero actionable information. As soon as she knows their sex, her risk calculation is complete: knowing their gender identity doesn't tell her anything additional which is useful.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link