This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I think part of why I understand how tempting "bubbling up" can be is that I'm such a big fan of the "borderline-autistic nerds" social bubble in particular.
"... we can't expect to meet on everything right away, you and I. So I won't ask you to say that the Dark Lord was wrong to kill my mother, just say that it was... sad. We won't talk about whether or not it was necessary, whether it was justified. I'll just ask you to say that it was sad that it happened, that my mother's life was valuable too, you'll just say that for now. And I'll say it was sad that Narcissa died, because her life was also worth something. We can't expect to agree on everything right away, but if we start out by saying that every life is precious, that it's sad when anyone dies, then I know we'll meet someday. That's what I want you to say. Not who was right. Not who was wrong. Just that it was sad ..."
I think this was surprisingly poignant for me because the moralist in me wants to say that this sentiment is so trivially, obviously true that it's not worth any melodrama, whereas the cynic in me wants to say that it's so empirically, historically doomed that it's not worth any optimism, and there's a lot of tension from that dilemma.
Are you thinking historically or currently? E.g. currently, trade between the UK and France is something like $100B/year right now, so they're hardly shunning each other, but historically, I'd say the Hundred Years' War meets my "embarrassing failure mode for a society" criterion hands down.
Rapid values change and rapid communication. It's awesome to be able to learn about others' beliefs directly without a clueless game of telephone in between; it's admittedly less awesome when your neighbor can also get all the data they want but is still clueless about how to turn it into information.
I'd hope we might build up some immunity to memetic assault, over generations, ideally as people who take on poor values learn from their mistakes and teach their kids better, possibly as they just end up with fewer kids. I guess the biggest problem here is that, more than the France/England or Christendom/Dar-al-Islam separations, pillarization within a single country makes it much less safe to let your countrymen make their own mistakes, so long as they can vote to make their mistakes yours too. Or maybe we'll find that nasty memes can evolve faster than our immunity to them can? Nobody worries about "The Gin Craze" anymore, but the descendants of people who could resist "the devil's brew" etc. are now finding it harder to cope with fentanyl...
Or maybe it'll all be moot for one reason or another; everything's changing fast now, not just our values.
More options
Context Copy link