site banner
PaperclipPerfector  3mo ago (text post)   32894 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of August 5, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

8
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I view it as a -- correct! -- suspicion that she was being presented with a "gotcha!" question, and decided it was better for her to avoid the question, and that any potential benefit from a frank and honest response was outweighed by the chance of her comments being misconstrued or used as a political cudgel.

Ah--but she didn't avoid the question, did she! She answered it, and her answer was stupid. Even by your proffered metric, an intelligent answer might have been to respond, as Souter once did (when asked about abortion),

". . . with respect to that . . . I think that is the point at which I must respectfully draw that line . . . this kind of discussion would take me down a road which I think it would be unethical for me to follow is something that perhaps I can suggest, and I will close with this question: Is there anyone who has not, at some point, made up his mind on some subject and then later found reason to change or modify it? No one has failed to have that experience. No one has also failed to know that it is much easier to modify an opinion if one has not already stated it convincingly to someone else. With that in mind, can you imagine the pressure that would be on a judge who had stated an opinion, or seemed to have given a commitment in these circumstances to the Senate of the United States, and for all practical purposes, to the American people?"

But no! Her answer was:

Can I provide a definition? No. I can't. Not in this context. I'm not a biologist. . . . Senator, in my work as a judge what I do is I address disputes. If there is a dispute about a definition, people make arguments, and I look at the law, and I decide.

Even the reference to experts I have no sympathy for; cases sufficiently contested to arrive at the Supreme Court essentially never lack for "expert" representation on both sides, disagreeing over the correct outcome. Leaning on "experts" is lazy jurisprudence.

In fact, giving an "honest" answer but with an implication you didn't consider is potentially even harmful! Realizing this is a positive trait, thinking before you speak, is it not?

I don't see evidence of that here. This response was not clever, however one might wish to backfill cleverness into it. I mean, just... look at Souter's response. It's practically boilerplate at this point: "that is a question that seems likely to come before the Court." Jackson was so worried about accidentally saying something non-Woke that she didn't even think to use the boring boilerplate. To be either so zealous in that cause, or so cowed by it, as to elicit such a flub... no. There is nothing to be impressed about in her response.

It says more about our current politics than it does about her specifically.

Certainly it is harder to be a virtuous person when one does not live in a virtuous state.

I won't say it's impossible, but it often feels that way.

But she's right, isn't she? That is her job: to look at a dispute, people make arguments, and she (and others) decide. To jump straight to the "deciding" step is illogical (that's what Sen. Blackburne was asking her to do, in effect, to jump right to an answer/decision by providing a rigid definition) and so I view her answer as fundamentally similar to Souter's. Souter basically said "I don't want to say one thing and then end up deciding another and so I'm going to keep my mind open" and Jackson basically said "I'm not going to say something because I don't need to" and the second is, I will grant you, obviously much less eloquent but they get at the same general idea? Can't you see the Souter motivation could equally apply to Jackson's answer even if she didn't explicitly say so? That's my view on it, at least.

If I had to point a finger of blame about the process, I've said this before but I feel the questions asked of potential nominees are in many cases insufficient and misdirected. I think there's a higher burden on the members of the committee and Senate to conduct a better hearing and would love to see that improve before putting the main burden on the "defendant" as it were. More job interview, less grandstanding. If we get that, I'd feel more comfortable taking the nominee to task for "bad" answers.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats