the extreme slave morality Nietzche criticizes in Christianity is just plainly present
Do elucidate, because it seems like at least one of the following is true:
People making this criticism just have moral intuitions that I find alien and abhorrent.
People criticizing what they call "slave morality" can't keep track of what the thing they are trying to criticize even is.
People claiming that Christianity exemplifies "slave morality" have a ludicrous caricature of Christianity in their head, and hate that rather than the real thing.
I'd previously assumed that it was just a matter of (1), but from Scott's post and some of the commentary on it I suspect that the others are at play here.
Christianity praises (and frequently venerates as Saints) radical ascetics (even if they don't do anything, and just hold out their asceticism as an example to others, like the Stylites), passive victims of persecution (Crusaders who die in battle are not considered martyrs, randos picked up in Roman persecutions of Christians are), and people who make great sacrifices in order to support ineffective charity (like Mother Theresa). From a vitalist perspective, all of these groups are Losers.
Christianity doesn't condemn Will to Power per se, but it tends to reserve its strongest condemnation for the vices which are correlated with it like pride, avarice, and wrath.
I think the core Nietzschean claim that Christianity embodies slave morality is obviously correct. Given the problems with societies that tell every man (or even just every aristocrat) he ought to be a master, I don't see why this is a problem. Even if we take on master morality religion at its own game, the military conflict between Christian civilisation and Islamic "civilisation" had been back-and-forth with no sign of an ultimate winner for over 1000 years by the time we invented the machine gun and settled the issue.
If the only thesis here is that Christianity has different values than pagan warrior types, this is indeed obvious and not a penetrating insight. In that case I have no idea why any of this is worth discussing at all, and the language about "master morality" and "slave morality" is nothing more than vacuous rhetorical dressing invented out of sophistry and a dislike of the Christian values. Maybe that's what it is; I don't have a very high opinion of Nietzsche or his sycophants.
On the other hand, all the talk of "slave morality" being based on resentment and cutting down tall poppies and exalting incapacity to do things seems to suggest some additional substance to the characterization; the problem is that this additional substance does not describe Christianity at all! If you read what people actually said about ascetics, you will find that they are frequently described as disciplined athletes (this is literally what the word means), or as fighting battles against demons; they are lauded not for sitting around doing nothing, but for successfully pursuing explicit, positive values; the physical deprivations of the ascetic are not ends to themselves, nor suffered because they must be, but are deliberately and with great difficulty enacted in service of spiritual goals. And similarly the martyrs are held up as examples not for their bad luck in becoming victims, but for their willingness to endure torture or death rather than give up and renounce their faith. "From a Vitalist perspective, all of these groups are Losers" is just another way of saying that they have radically different values; it's not a point in favor of the Christian values being different in the way that is being claimed.
If the only thesis here is that Christianity has different values than pagan warrior types, this is indeed obvious and not a penetrating insight. In that case I have no idea why any of this is worth discussing at all, and the language about "master morality" and "slave morality" is nothing more than vacuous rhetorical dressing invented out of sophistry and a dislike of the Christian values. Maybe that's what it is; I don't have a very high opinion of Nietzsche or his sycophants.
FWIW, I agree with you on this point - Nietzsche (like a lot of right-wing edgelords) found civilisation enervating and was trying to make an emotional appeal for barbarism by using the loaded terms "master morality" and "slave morality". But I read your previous post as arguing that Nietzsche was wrong to tie Christianity to what he calls "slave morality" and I call "civilised behaviour". Whereas I think Nietzsche was right that Jesus killed Superman (or more strictly outcompeted him memetically rendering him irrelevant), but wrong about this being a bad thing.
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Notes -
Do elucidate, because it seems like at least one of the following is true:
I'd previously assumed that it was just a matter of (1), but from Scott's post and some of the commentary on it I suspect that the others are at play here.
Christianity praises (and frequently venerates as Saints) radical ascetics (even if they don't do anything, and just hold out their asceticism as an example to others, like the Stylites), passive victims of persecution (Crusaders who die in battle are not considered martyrs, randos picked up in Roman persecutions of Christians are), and people who make great sacrifices in order to support ineffective charity (like Mother Theresa). From a vitalist perspective, all of these groups are Losers.
Christianity doesn't condemn Will to Power per se, but it tends to reserve its strongest condemnation for the vices which are correlated with it like pride, avarice, and wrath.
I think the core Nietzschean claim that Christianity embodies slave morality is obviously correct. Given the problems with societies that tell every man (or even just every aristocrat) he ought to be a master, I don't see why this is a problem. Even if we take on master morality religion at its own game, the military conflict between Christian civilisation and Islamic "civilisation" had been back-and-forth with no sign of an ultimate winner for over 1000 years by the time we invented the machine gun and settled the issue.
If the only thesis here is that Christianity has different values than pagan warrior types, this is indeed obvious and not a penetrating insight. In that case I have no idea why any of this is worth discussing at all, and the language about "master morality" and "slave morality" is nothing more than vacuous rhetorical dressing invented out of sophistry and a dislike of the Christian values. Maybe that's what it is; I don't have a very high opinion of Nietzsche or his sycophants.
On the other hand, all the talk of "slave morality" being based on resentment and cutting down tall poppies and exalting incapacity to do things seems to suggest some additional substance to the characterization; the problem is that this additional substance does not describe Christianity at all! If you read what people actually said about ascetics, you will find that they are frequently described as disciplined athletes (this is literally what the word means), or as fighting battles against demons; they are lauded not for sitting around doing nothing, but for successfully pursuing explicit, positive values; the physical deprivations of the ascetic are not ends to themselves, nor suffered because they must be, but are deliberately and with great difficulty enacted in service of spiritual goals. And similarly the martyrs are held up as examples not for their bad luck in becoming victims, but for their willingness to endure torture or death rather than give up and renounce their faith. "From a Vitalist perspective, all of these groups are Losers" is just another way of saying that they have radically different values; it's not a point in favor of the Christian values being different in the way that is being claimed.
FWIW, I agree with you on this point - Nietzsche (like a lot of right-wing edgelords) found civilisation enervating and was trying to make an emotional appeal for barbarism by using the loaded terms "master morality" and "slave morality". But I read your previous post as arguing that Nietzsche was wrong to tie Christianity to what he calls "slave morality" and I call "civilised behaviour". Whereas I think Nietzsche was right that Jesus killed Superman (or more strictly outcompeted him memetically rendering him irrelevant), but wrong about this being a bad thing.
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