site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 29, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

9
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

This has earned him the moniker of "Two-Tier Kier", with many calling out that a two tier justice system exists in the country; when minorities riot over facing justice, the state bends over backwards to appease them, but when native whites riot over the stabbing of children, the full force of the state comes out to crush them.

I'm not familiar enough with the state of it all to opine, but if someone were to steelman the opposite position -- that there is no two-tier policing and the UK authorities and police treat everyone fairly -- what would it be?

Does it require a context wherein a certain response to BLM type or Indo-Paki protests are justified to receive tacit support, but things like anti-vax/anti-lockdown/anti-mask protests do not? Rotherham grooming gangs is sufficiently dated to where a steelman may not necessarily need to address it, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are more recent examples that a Brits would point to. What is the evidence that UK authorities do not treat the benefactors and subjects of the migrant friendly, multiculturalist policies more kindly than they do their own native citizens? Or would the argument be that they are justified in doing so to avoid, well, I would have thought they'd say they do so to avoid conflict like this.

Looking it up 3/4 of migrants that they detain file some legal dispute and the UK deports around 5,000 foreign criminals a year.

Say what you will about the Bri'ish Isles, but UK government reports seem so much higher quality than stuff America puts out. That second link is nicely packed with information. Especially the part where they explain EU human rights commissions fudge up "deport first, appeal later" policy where they kicked people out before hearing out their disputes. Just what exactly did Brexit do for the UK in this regard? Anything? As an aside, opening up your nice Western legal system to the world continues to appear untenable. Where can I invest in human rights law firms?

In 2023, just under 4,000 foreign offenders were removed from the UK. This was the highest number in four years, but removals remain lower than pre- pandemic levels. From 2010 to 2019, removals averaged 5,500 per year. [39]

There were 10,400 foreign national offenders in prisons in England and Wales as of 31 March 2024, accounting for 12% of all prisoners.

Whether those numbers are a lot or a little does little to quell concerns about importing tragedy. Anyone knowledgeable enough and feeling steel manny enough to explain why this is just a common nativist rage, the UK government deals with these issues handedly, or alternative angles? From this side of the ocean it does seem like this is a long time coming.

EDIT: Thinking about it, if they're deporting about half the number of "foreign offenders" that they keep in jail, that seems like a significant amount. Although this doesn't engage with the fact that foreign criminals become classified as native ones in a quick 15 years, stuff like the criminality of 2nd generation immigrant citizens, and so on.

The steelman to there being no two-tier policing is that the difference in police response to different demographics is motivated not by racism, but instead by a desire to prevent escalation to violence. The police know that if they break up a BLM riot, the next day half of London will be aflame, so they don't touch it. But milquetoast anti-lockdown protesters, who are maybe protesting for the first time in their life? There's no risk to baton charging them, so they get baton charged. Repeat for Hamas vs Israeli marches. If they start arresting tens of thousands of Islamists for terrorism offences, as the letter of the law would demand, they'd face retaliatory terror attacks. Peaceful Jewish counter-protesters might similarly provoke the violent Islamists, however, and need to be stopped.

This steelman is the mainstream response to arguments of two-tier policing (when not simply ignored). The police are biased because they're pragmatic, rather than because they are racist or serving as the paramilitary wing of the Labour party.

It has two problems

  1. It means that those who dislike being on the receiving end of two-tier policing are instructed to be more violent if they want it to stop
  2. As is being demonstrated now, being more violent doesn't actually get it to stop, because the argument is wrong.

Yeah, my gut says we're failing the Turing test. That reads too closely to online doomer well-of-course-the-whites-won't-revolt rage thinking. A person that thinks that nativist uprisings in this context are completely unjustified isn't going to defend their position with a through-and-through justification of the lopsided enforcement. Maybe they do, but if they're a dedicated pragmatist, then surely they can see the inherently impractical nature in failing to sufficiently placate the majority native population? All you have to do is demonstrate that the majority is sufficiently cared for and protected from [bad people]. It doesn't take much to Set Examples for said population. If there were enough examples to support a policy choice they'd be easy to point to?

It may be the case that the authorities deliberately decided it was safer to align against the majority to some extent, but I'm struggling to think of alternatives explanations that aren't ideological. If it's been a misjudgment of pragmatic policy (less strife and chance of ethnic misgivings if we stack the deck this way) that'd be one thing, but it's ended up so predictably wrong I don't know how you can really say it was a practical policy choice at all. UK decided to do this in 2005 when all was nice enough and inertia carried it through 20 years I guess?

You are right, but you asked for the Steelman argument. That isn't the political turing test argument for it, which is that two-tier policing in any form doesn't exist.