site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 3, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

24
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

doing the kinds of things Credibility-mongers argue the US ought to have done in Afghanistan/Iraq/Syria: institute a draft

Wait, when the mongers, whoever they are, argued for the draft in relation to Afghanistan/Iraq/Syria? I thought the argument was we should support local allies on the ground and given them weapons, etc. instead of dumping everything and running like we're competing in 400m sprint? What this has to do with the draft?

loosen rules of engagement

Not sure what this means in regards to Putin - what rules have been changed lately and how?

knock out infrastructure of neutral parties that support the enemy

What are you talking about? I've never heard of Putin knocking out any third-party infrastructure, and as most of the aid to Ukraine comes through Poland, I'm sure Poland would be screaming Article 5 very loudly if Putin tried to knock out anything there.

Putin keeps pushing farther with each reputation-shattering defeat to get all the credibility he has lost back and more

I'm not sure what "credibility" you are talking about - Putin and his surrogates repeatedly claimed there's no war, there's just a little special military operation which would end very soon with total victory, and no draft is going to be necessary, not now, not ever. And there's no need for draft anyway because there are almost no losses. Now there's a draft (and it's called "limited" but on the ground it's "grab everybody who remotely looks like capable of holding a rifle"), and with numbers from 300 thousands to potentially a million - which is a humongous number. This is completely contrary to every claim that has been made about the war by Putin and his surrogates for months. What "credibility"?

In Russia, there's not even much of such thing as "credibility" - everybody knows the government lies all the time. I mean: All. The. Time. They're actually ok with it - as long as there's at least some benefit from it - e.g. if the lie served the cause of the Greatness of Russia, then they live in the Great Russia of which everybody is afraid, and thus they're ok with the government lying.

He is behaving as though he is doubling down on a lost cause to prove a point to the international community.

He's not "proving a point". And "international community" is not his main target audience, either. He started a war, with the promise of easy win. There's no win. Now he can either admit he lost - and in Russian culture, there's no way of honorably losing a fight, there's no such concept. Or throw more and more resources into it to hope maybe somewhere there would be some situation that somehow may be presented as a win. Except it's kinda hard when Ukrainians are kicking their asses day to day. The only thing he needs from the "international community" is to falter in their support for Ukraine, so that such "win" situation may present itself - e.g. pressure Zelensky to negotiate without conclusive military victory and surrender the occupied territories. It's not a question of "credibility" as in some gentleman's debate - it's a question of survival for his power structure (and his own person, of course, but it's not only about him personally). If he's not getting a win - he's a loser, and a loser can't be a Tzar. It's not a question of any "credibility", it's a question of claiming the power but not actually having the power - that's something you can't do in Russia.